Getting bored

BriMan2222

@WhiteBomber said:

(try using someone besides Juggernaut or Polaris when they're boosted, and see how far you get!).

C'mon... c'mon.. really? You will get as high as you want to get assuming you have other decent characters. OR, until you hit a ceiling where I'm told alliance illuminati will continue to beat you down, which at that point, your team doesn't matter.

No, no you will not. Try climbing above 700 points during a meta characters boost week with a team that doesn't have them. You will get hit 4 times in the time it takes you to get 1 win because you will be a target for everyone being the only guy not running the boosted meta.

Nothing to do with secret alliances. Every random that sees an "easy" team will jump on you.

WhiteBomber

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:

(try using someone besides Juggernaut or Polaris when they're boosted, and see how far you get!).

C'mon... c'mon.. really? You will get as high as you want to get assuming you have other decent characters. OR, until you hit a ceiling where I'm told alliance illuminati will continue to beat you down, which at that point, your team doesn't matter.

If I try to play without Polaris or Juggernaut in a boosted week for them, I might scratch my way to 700 if I do 100+ wins, but I'm almost definitely not getting past there. The losses would be massive.

WhiteBomber

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

I always see 50+ point matches along with max boosted characters (you even contributed to a previous conversation about how I see them often). I regularly look for the top 10 in my slice to hit for fun. I often sit in top 10 for hours at a time unshielded. I usually only avoid teams if I am looking to try something specific, but more often I am looking to fight the meta teams so I can get more data for the PVP counter thread.

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

Scofie

@WhiteBomber said:

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

I should say for the record, that I'm only getting Sam to 500 because it's a round number and he was at 496 naturally after he left LL using my random gradual uplift method. I'll get Hobgoblin and Juggerducky to round numbers too before they leave LLs or shortly after.

I've not chased Juggs or Polaris because I'm increasing all my other 4*s and I'd like to think at some point that will be good and fun. The 4 I first chased was Purple Man because his kit was fun and then targeted a couple after that: GR2099, Daredevil and now Moonstone.

I have Leapfrog at 250 because I have had for ages (when I had RIso to burn and not many R5 supports). Currently targeting Widow Batons.

But I'm not a competitive player...

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

I always see 50+ point matches along with max boosted characters (you even contributed to a previous conversation about how I see them often). I regularly look for the top 10 in my slice to hit for fun. I often sit in top 10 for hours at a time unshielded. I usually only avoid teams if I am looking to try something specific, but more often I am looking to fight the meta teams so I can get more data for the PVP counter thread.

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

If you're doing 50 point fights, then 25 wins gets you past 1200. Something isn't adding up.

The point was that if you're not currently seeing a wall, you may start seeing it soon -- it's possible that the folks in your matchmaking band haven't had a chance to level those guys yet. They're likely working on it, though!

WhiteBomber

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

No. Not quite.

.......

DAZ0273

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@Bustapup said:

@WhiteBomber said:
If you want to play Magik5, go Toni Ho, she actually breathes some life in to the not so good Magik5. Though, I'm still not sure I would take them against BRB Polaris without someone who counters SAPs. Toni stun is probably enough.

So this is my point....if u can't even use her in a boosted event because she will still get stomped on my Polaris, why bother building any character that isn't meta? It's a HUGE problem with the game.

And I'll reiterate again, I know how to counter teams so saying my team deserved to be beaten is basically confirming my point, ie. To beat these teams you have to rely on the same old boring characters day in and day out. I've got a champed Goblin, unlocked 5 covers for Toni and I've tried with brand, Wanda etc ....characters who SHOULD sync with Magik and it makes zero difference.

My magik is high level and she is boosted so and you're STILL telling me that she should be wiped out in turn one?

Using the "rock/paper/scissors" analogy though, if the person you're playing against keeps using rocks, it doesn't matter how good your scissors are. At some point you have to use paper and hope your next opponent is a bit more interesting.

The problem here is not just in the game, it's in the choices players make in order to win. I think the only way to change player behaviour is to change the way that you win, or implement factors that affect your score. For example:

• No Points lost if you lose on offense.
• A Points reduction for winning using the same team on consecutive turns, with a scaled reduction (e.g. 10% per turn).
• A Points reduction for the number of times that team has been run in the event across all players.
• Can attack with a team you've not used before in the event whilst shielded without losing your shield.

Those might drive different teams to fight. I know the new engine isn't a magic wand but I wonder if there are other things that could change the face of PvP in a way that might encourage a bit of player diversity. Any ideas welcome!

Weekly boosts should already be accomplishing this. The boost is massive -- it turns a lvl450 baby champ into a 550+ endgame character. "The wall" will still exist, because "the wall" will always exist. MPQ incentivizes you to run the strongest possible team. But "the wall" should change every single week. Why doesn't it? Why do we see the same teams over and over again for years, no matter who's boosted?

Because chosen synergy is always better than random duo. I am not of the mindset to think "that should work but it doesn't so let's not go anything else". I think the questions you ask at the end are key, but I'd ask: how do we make the same teams less attractive to use over and over again?

I think a lot of MPQ players are creatures of habit, especially nearer the top end. We have a lot of maths guys with spreadsheets. They like certainty and consistency, using the same teams over and over gives a statistical higher chance of achieving success. This is why they like accepted meta teams - it lessons chaos and ensures continuity of placement. If everybody is armed with the same weapon, at least you know what sort of fight you are in. Why bother experimenting when you can pick a sure thing? And I can ensure you that experimenting with Jeff is not to be entertained unless you are after crushing defeat.

I also think MPQ players have a high aversion to defeat. Losing points is hated. Wins based PvP seemed to help a bit with this but players want to sit out unshielded and feel safe, hence all these copycat meta teams with horrible Supports equipped. Players like White Bomber who seems to thrive on getting hit and testing teams seem rare to me.

I prefer chaos myself but then I'm not even an accounts rounding number.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

I always see 50+ point matches along with max boosted characters (you even contributed to a previous conversation about how I see them often). I regularly look for the top 10 in my slice to hit for fun. I often sit in top 10 for hours at a time unshielded. I usually only avoid teams if I am looking to try something specific, but more often I am looking to fight the meta teams so I can get more data for the PVP counter thread.

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

If you're doing 50 point fights, then 25 wins gets you past 1200. Something isn't adding up.

The point was that if you're not currently seeing a wall, you may start seeing it soon -- it's possible that the folks in your matchmaking band haven't had a chance to level those guys yet. They're likely working on it, though!

If he is sitting unshielded he will be getting hit, so easy to see how he isn't hitting 1200.

Borstock

@WhiteBomber said:

@Borstock said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

No. Not quite.

.......

I mean, it's not terribly difficult for me to skip through a bunch of teams and show exactly what I'm facing. It's all maxed Juggs/Sam, with the annoying supports. If you're NOT seeing that, and that appears to be what you're reporting, I don't know what to say. I do know that you're NOT floating top 10 while I'm active or else I'd have annihilated you, since I play to 50 wins and am always looking for different options to tap.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

I always see 50+ point matches along with max boosted characters (you even contributed to a previous conversation about how I see them often). I regularly look for the top 10 in my slice to hit for fun. I often sit in top 10 for hours at a time unshielded. I usually only avoid teams if I am looking to try something specific, but more often I am looking to fight the meta teams so I can get more data for the PVP counter thread.

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

If you're doing 50 point fights, then 25 wins gets you past 1200. Something isn't adding up.

The point was that if you're not currently seeing a wall, you may start seeing it soon -- it's possible that the folks in your matchmaking band haven't had a chance to level those guys yet. They're likely working on it, though!

If he is sitting unshielded he will be getting hit, so easy to see how he isn't hitting 1200.

So like, "I did 25 wins and got to 700 points" is a very, VERY different thing than "I did 25 wins while getting brutally murdered for 500+ points, and ended up at 700 points."

WhiteBomber

Taking quite the liberties with that math I see, we must be playing a different game.

Grantosium

@Scofie said:
The problem here is not just in the game, it's in the choices players make in order to win. I think the only way to change player behaviour is to change the way that you win, or implement factors that affect your score. For example:

• No Points lost if you lose on offense.
• A Points reduction for winning using the same team on consecutive turns, with a scaled reduction (e.g. 10% per turn).
• A Points reduction for the number of times that team has been run in the event across all players.
• Can attack with a team you've not used before in the event whilst shielded without losing your shield.

Those might drive different teams to fight. I know the new engine isn't a magic wand but I wonder if there are other things that could change the face of PvP in a way that might encourage a bit of player diversity. Any ideas welcome!

I think this deserves its own thread that doesn't touch on character balance or who is and isn't casual.

At launch presumably health packs were intended to both be an income stream and a way to force free-to-players to broaden their roster. With turn 1 wins both the income stream and roster width incentives are broadly missing. Some (collapsible) ideas:

Character health lost even on wins

Doubtless to be an unpopular option but most likely an easy to implement one. The health penalty applied on a retreat could be applied on a win. Likely not as game changing as it sounds as the retreat penalty is not massive, it may simply prove to be annoyance and not force as much character rotation as needed. Testing would be required.

Stamina bars as a multiplier for points

This one similar to Scofie's suggestion, a stamina bar added to the game similar to a second health bar. It caps at 1.0 and runs down a percentage point or 3 when a character is used. Over time it refills to a 1.0x multiplier. Can be refilled with health packs or a new consumable item. Alternatively this could be reworked as a way to reinvent PvE as a more immersive and rewarding experience with less focus on time and more on roster width.

Stamina bars as a multiplier for damage

Again a second health bar named stamina. It drops a few percentage points when a character is used and refills over time. It multiples damage by a number between 1 and 0. Infinite combos can still turn 1 infinitely but become slower with overuse and encourage shaking up the line up. Refill with consumable items. Could allow multiple stacks of the stamina bar so the multiplier doesn't begin to drop until a character is used X times in a time period.

Jokers

Since the first few suggestions all involve taking something away and it could be received badly a reframing as a positive: each character can have a joker "card" that can be activated from the character select screen. It doubles the points on the current mission and takes 6/8/12/24 hours to regenerate after use. Strategic use of jokers could produce some 8x points rounds. Would be a step too far to allow these to be refilled with health packs maybe?

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

I always see 50+ point matches along with max boosted characters (you even contributed to a previous conversation about how I see them often). I regularly look for the top 10 in my slice to hit for fun. I often sit in top 10 for hours at a time unshielded. I usually only avoid teams if I am looking to try something specific, but more often I am looking to fight the meta teams so I can get more data for the PVP counter thread.

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

If you're doing 50 point fights, then 25 wins gets you past 1200. Something isn't adding up.

The point was that if you're not currently seeing a wall, you may start seeing it soon -- it's possible that the folks in your matchmaking band haven't had a chance to level those guys yet. They're likely working on it, though!

If he is sitting unshielded he will be getting hit, so easy to see how he isn't hitting 1200.

So like, "I did 25 wins and got to 700 points" is a very, VERY different thing than "I did 25 wins while getting brutally murdered for 500+ points, and ended up at 700 points."

I dunno, I lost to Jeff, what do I know? From their posts though it seems they have a "come and get me" attitude and that explains the lower points score. Also nobody said every match was 50 points or whatever? Also I am lost at where we are now in this thread?

entrailbucket

@Grantosium said:

@Scofie said:
The problem here is not just in the game, it's in the choices players make in order to win. I think the only way to change player behaviour is to change the way that you win, or implement factors that affect your score. For example:

• No Points lost if you lose on offense.
• A Points reduction for winning using the same team on consecutive turns, with a scaled reduction (e.g. 10% per turn).
• A Points reduction for the number of times that team has been run in the event across all players.
• Can attack with a team you've not used before in the event whilst shielded without losing your shield.

Those might drive different teams to fight. I know the new engine isn't a magic wand but I wonder if there are other things that could change the face of PvP in a way that might encourage a bit of player diversity. Any ideas welcome!

I think this deserves its own thread that doesn't touch on character balance or who is and isn't casual.

At launch presumably health packs were intended to both be an income stream and a way to force free-to-players to broaden their roster. With turn 1 wins both the income stream and roster width incentives are broadly missing. Some (collapsible) ideas:

Character health lost even on wins

Doubtless to be an unpopular option but most likely an easy to implement one. The health penalty applied on a retreat could be applied on a win. Likely not as game changing as it sounds as the retreat penalty is not massive, it may simply prove to be annoyance and not force as much character rotation as needed. Testing would be required.

Stamina bars as a multiplier for points

This one similar to Scofie's suggestion, a stamina bar added to the game similar to a second health bar. It caps at 1.0 and runs down a percentage point or 3 when a character is used. Over time it refills to a 1.0x multiplier. Can be refilled with health packs or a new consumable item. Alternatively this could be reworked as a way to reinvent PvE as a more immersive and rewarding experience with less focus on time and more on roster width.

Stamina bars as a multiplier for damage

Again a second health bar named stamina. It drops a few percentage points when a character is used and refills over time. It multiples damage by a number between 1 and 0. Infinite combos can still turn 1 infinitely but become slower with overuse and encourage shaking up the line up. Refill with consumable items. Could allow multiple stacks of the stamina bar so the multiplier doesn't begin to drop until a character is used X times in a time period.

Jokers

Since the first few suggestions all involve taking something away and it could be received badly a reframing as a positive: each character can have a joker "card" that can be activated from the character select screen. It doubles the points on the current mission and takes 6/8/12/24 hours to regenerate after use. Strategic use of jokers could produce some 8x points rounds. Would be a step too far to allow these to be refilled with health packs maybe?

I don't hate any of these ideas, I just don't think these sorts of massive gameplay changes are necessary, and some of them could result in wildly unpredictable effects on the metagame.

The boosted list and featured/required characters should already accomplish a weekly changeover. Giving selected characters a massive level buff should make those characters the best/strongest option while the buff is active. Why isn't it working?

• some of the characters are so bad that even with +100 levels, they're still terrible. Like Hela is on this week's list, I have her at 550, and I'm not even going to bother trying her out. She has super low health and match damage, and her powers are very weak -- at lvl672! Fix the bad characters, so they're usable when they're featured.

• some of the characters are way too good, such that they trivially punch up 200 or more levels. This would be less obvious if there weren't so many duds still running around, but once the duds are addressed, there are a few characters that will need fixing.

• the boost list often lacks synergy. This isn't as big a problem as the other two, because the boost itself is so big that you can generally just brute force things, but it would help if some sort of curation was applied.

...and that's it! Do that stuff and you get week to week diversity in the metagame. You don't need huge mechanics changes or penalties or new consumables or anything.

DAZ0273

@Grantosium said:

@Scofie said:
The problem here is not just in the game, it's in the choices players make in order to win. I think the only way to change player behaviour is to change the way that you win, or implement factors that affect your score. For example:

• No Points lost if you lose on offense.
• A Points reduction for winning using the same team on consecutive turns, with a scaled reduction (e.g. 10% per turn).
• A Points reduction for the number of times that team has been run in the event across all players.
• Can attack with a team you've not used before in the event whilst shielded without losing your shield.

Those might drive different teams to fight. I know the new engine isn't a magic wand but I wonder if there are other things that could change the face of PvP in a way that might encourage a bit of player diversity. Any ideas welcome!

I think this deserves its own thread that doesn't touch on character balance or who is and isn't casual.

At launch presumably health packs were intended to both be an income stream and a way to force free-to-players to broaden their roster. With turn 1 wins both the income stream and roster width incentives are broadly missing. Some (collapsible) ideas:

Character health lost even on wins

Doubtless to be an unpopular option but most likely an easy to implement one. The health penalty applied on a retreat could be applied on a win. Likely not as game changing as it sounds as the retreat penalty is not massive, it may simply prove to be annoyance and not force as much character rotation as needed. Testing would be required.

Stamina bars as a multiplier for points

This one similar to Scofie's suggestion, a stamina bar added to the game similar to a second health bar. It caps at 1.0 and runs down a percentage point or 3 when a character is used. Over time it refills to a 1.0x multiplier. Can be refilled with health packs or a new consumable item. Alternatively this could be reworked as a way to reinvent PvE as a more immersive and rewarding experience with less focus on time and more on roster width.

Stamina bars as a multiplier for damage

Again a second health bar named stamina. It drops a few percentage points when a character is used and refills over time. It multiples damage by a number between 1 and 0. Infinite combos can still turn 1 infinitely but become slower with overuse and encourage shaking up the line up. Refill with consumable items. Could allow multiple stacks of the stamina bar so the multiplier doesn't begin to drop until a character is used X times in a time period.

Jokers

Since the first few suggestions all involve taking something away and it could be received badly a reframing as a positive: each character can have a joker "card" that can be activated from the character select screen. It doubles the points on the current mission and takes 6/8/12/24 hours to regenerate after use. Strategic use of jokers could produce some 8x points rounds. Would be a step too far to allow these to be refilled with health packs maybe?

Why not just have a sliding scale multiplier - so the Devs create groups of characters based on ranking tier of usage - so Polaris would be S tier but if you use her in PvP you get a minus to scores - say 50% less points for a win whereas Jeff would of course get 100%. Or something?

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

I always see 50+ point matches along with max boosted characters (you even contributed to a previous conversation about how I see them often). I regularly look for the top 10 in my slice to hit for fun. I often sit in top 10 for hours at a time unshielded. I usually only avoid teams if I am looking to try something specific, but more often I am looking to fight the meta teams so I can get more data for the PVP counter thread.

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

If you're doing 50 point fights, then 25 wins gets you past 1200. Something isn't adding up.

The point was that if you're not currently seeing a wall, you may start seeing it soon -- it's possible that the folks in your matchmaking band haven't had a chance to level those guys yet. They're likely working on it, though!

If he is sitting unshielded he will be getting hit, so easy to see how he isn't hitting 1200.

So like, "I did 25 wins and got to 700 points" is a very, VERY different thing than "I did 25 wins while getting brutally murdered for 500+ points, and ended up at 700 points."

I dunno, I lost to Jeff, what do I know? From their posts though it seems they have a "come and get me" attitude and that explains the lower points score. Also nobody said every match was 50 points or whatever? Also I am lost at where we are now in this thread?

The point is that we can't make big declarative statements about what is or isn't while we are all engaging with the game in completely different ways. This person is a very casual player, and obviously that perspective is valuable, but they can't speak for others who play much more, in a much different way.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

I always see 50+ point matches along with max boosted characters (you even contributed to a previous conversation about how I see them often). I regularly look for the top 10 in my slice to hit for fun. I often sit in top 10 for hours at a time unshielded. I usually only avoid teams if I am looking to try something specific, but more often I am looking to fight the meta teams so I can get more data for the PVP counter thread.

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

If you're doing 50 point fights, then 25 wins gets you past 1200. Something isn't adding up.

The point was that if you're not currently seeing a wall, you may start seeing it soon -- it's possible that the folks in your matchmaking band haven't had a chance to level those guys yet. They're likely working on it, though!

If he is sitting unshielded he will be getting hit, so easy to see how he isn't hitting 1200.

So like, "I did 25 wins and got to 700 points" is a very, VERY different thing than "I did 25 wins while getting brutally murdered for 500+ points, and ended up at 700 points."

I dunno, I lost to Jeff, what do I know? From their posts though it seems they have a "come and get me" attitude and that explains the lower points score. Also nobody said every match was 50 points or whatever? Also I am lost at where we are now in this thread?

The point is that we can't make big declarative statements about what is or isn't while we are all engaging with the game in completely different ways. This person is a very casual player, and obviously that perspective is valuable, but they can't speak for others who play much more, in a much different way.

I mean casual is as casual does? What is the definition of a casual player? He/she posted a screenshot of being top 10 which is either a jammy result based upon others being even more casual or actually a bit of effort? I again caveat with the I lost to a fish standard of my knowledge here.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:
Scofie knows what's up. If you know it's a hard counter to your team, all you have to do in this instance was swap one person to someone who counters them back.

I just pushed my 25 wins in the Toni ho event and saw different teams all the way to over 700 points. If anything, the main recurring factor was Magik was on the majority of those teams (and she is a jerk with Toni). So, either they need to fix everyone else's MMR, or people are being dramatic.

...25 wins/700 points. We are not playing the same game.

What game are you playing then? Is the frustration now that this is only a problem after X amount of wins and X amount of points?

You are beyond casual. I've been "retired" from PvP for like 6 years and I play at minimum twice as much as you do and frequently 4-6x as much. Serious PvP players are playing significantly more than me.

If my goal was to play for 15 minutes or whatever like you, I could also skip all the good teams and just bash a few seals and call it a day.

That was without skipping teams, and all I'm saying is, assuming the problem doesn't actually kick in until after that many points or wins, those details were not communicated and impacts a much smaller demographic.

It's not about points or wins, it's about roster and goals. You likely can't see the good players at all, and you're averaging like 25 points per win, which is awful. Are you seeing 60-75 point matches? Are you skipping them because their teams are too strong?

Players like me (and some others here!) are the canary in the coalmine. The folks I'm in competition with are on the bleeding edge of whatever the best thing in the game is, and everyone else is chasing that. They will get there eventually. I guarantee you there are hundreds of players investing into Sam/Jugg/Leapfrog/etc right now.

When Chasm and the Chasm/Hulk team showed up, nobody wanted to hear about it being overpowered (and I remember, I was there) until it broke containment and started showing up everywhere, for everyone.

I always see 50+ point matches along with max boosted characters (you even contributed to a previous conversation about how I see them often). I regularly look for the top 10 in my slice to hit for fun. I often sit in top 10 for hours at a time unshielded. I usually only avoid teams if I am looking to try something specific, but more often I am looking to fight the meta teams so I can get more data for the PVP counter thread.

Not sure what the comment about Sam/Jug/Frog has to do with this? Of course everyone is chasing them, and they should, I would never say otherwise.

If you're doing 50 point fights, then 25 wins gets you past 1200. Something isn't adding up.

The point was that if you're not currently seeing a wall, you may start seeing it soon -- it's possible that the folks in your matchmaking band haven't had a chance to level those guys yet. They're likely working on it, though!

If he is sitting unshielded he will be getting hit, so easy to see how he isn't hitting 1200.

So like, "I did 25 wins and got to 700 points" is a very, VERY different thing than "I did 25 wins while getting brutally murdered for 500+ points, and ended up at 700 points."

I dunno, I lost to Jeff, what do I know? From their posts though it seems they have a "come and get me" attitude and that explains the lower points score. Also nobody said every match was 50 points or whatever? Also I am lost at where we are now in this thread?

The point is that we can't make big declarative statements about what is or isn't while we are all engaging with the game in completely different ways. This person is a very casual player, and obviously that perspective is valuable, but they can't speak for others who play much more, in a much different way.

I mean casual is as casual does? What is the definition of a casual player? He/she posted a screenshot of being top 10 which is either a jammy result based upon others being even more casual or actually a bit of effort? I again caveat with the I lost to a fish standard of my knowledge here.

Hmm, I must be a super hardcore PvE player then...

(Or maybe it's early in the event and the bracket will look very different at the end)