Lethal Standard Two-Card Combo at Rare for 16 Total Mana

TheDude1

This will hopefully get nerfed quickly after I post, but there is a very lethal and very annoying two-card combo using only rare cards for a total of 16 mana. The rest of the deck can be enhanced around it, but it uses just Sharp-Eyed Rookie from MKM and Pinnacle Emissary from EOE.

It does require a turn to attack unless you also have haste and/or trample, but at 16 total mana it’s lightning-quick. Sequencing doesn’t matter, both of these cards trigger themselves upon entering which in turn triggers the other when on the battlefield. It generates not just a huge stack of robot tokens but also a very heavily buffed Rookie, so there are two huge threats to deal with. The bonus that makes it tougher to combat is that each trigger generates a clue token, which spawns a robot, which generates a clue token, etc until the board is completely full. This means unless you have a board wipe handy, you’re stuck only with the mana gained from your next swap because there’s no direct way to convert gems. And even if you board wipe and get rid of the creatures, destroying the clues means the opponent has a full hand to start all over again.

I’d argue this is a bigger short-term problem than Ocelot - total cost is cheaper, rarity/set is more accessible, doesn’t require sequencing or another external trigger, and using the second ability of Domri1 gets it accomplished almost immediately in most cases. Because Greg prioritizes creatures it’s easy to run into. And worst of all you have to sit through all the trigger animations until the board is full and the buffs complete.

I realize the nerf will probably be to limit the number of times one of these two cards triggers, but want to get attention on it before the next patch if possible.

Estragon

@Magic:PQ Support Team plz fix

FCLedZep

I played this combo in Standard Quick Battle and I lost 2 times in the first 4 matches. I don’t think I’ve had a similar or worse win/loss ratio except maybe the first few weeks I started playing this game. Once I lost against Anzrag’s Rampage whipping almost everything and once against Sab-Sunen, Luxa Embodied which you must remove or you will lose.

Their are also many other control cards to stop the combo. I never lost against DaBoss pre nerf and I never lost against Oceloop and I am pretty sure I will not lose easily against this combo too.

I like a challenge so I don’t think a nerf is necessary. Let’s first wait and see if this truly becomes problematic.

It’s also nice for new players to get their hands pretty easy on a strong combo.

FCLedZep

Oceloop is much stronger than this combo because the opponent has no extra turn to respond. Also Ajani, Sleeper Agent is quicker with his first ability to get the Oceloop combo pieces than Domri with his second ability to get the Pinnacle Rookie combo.

TheHunter

I agree with @FCLedZep not all loops are bad, and the Drone token one needs a set up you can see coming. Also, unless the pieces have been given Haste, you get a turn to deal with it too.
Ocelot Pride on the other hand cannot be answered once it’s played and 100% needs something to check it or slow it down.

TheDude1

I don't directly disagree with the arguments above, and I'm not saying Ocelot is fine or shouldn't be adjusted. But I am trying to put into context for all of the other arguments for nerfs/against power creep:

• Is this accessible? Yes, it's two standard rare cards (including one from a set where the daily offers rare cards).
• Is this power creep? I'd say 16 mana for a ~80/80 Drone stack and ~40/40 Rookie with no other setup is yes.
• Is this play style annoying? Yes, you have to sit through three separate trigger cycles (Drone additions, clue generation, and Rookie buffs). I have not done this once without triggering the loop timer
• Do I lose against this frequently? I don't know, I haven't faced it yet. But the "dies to removal/board wipes/other cards counter it" argument has been true for pretty much all other power creep discussions other than Ocelot.
• Is there precedent? Yes, Rocco was nerfed as part of a loop at uncommon. And going back further, cards like Naru Meha were nerfed for similar two-card loop shenanigans.

Re:Sab Sunen, Domri1's second ability gives your creatures trample at level 4. Doesn't affect the drones, but does let the Rookie go over the top of Sab Sunen. And there is plenty of removal in red/green or blue/green, you have 8 other cards in your deck to get it out of the way.

Also, I am a bit confused by seeing outrage and calls for nerfing things most people won't ever get, like five-masterpiece loop decks, but also seeing the argument that more people can get access this loop is OK/good. To be clear I know these aren't coming from the same individuals, but I think it would be good for folks who are pro-nerf in other circumstances to weigh in here.

ChewableTrash

They won’t adjust it.

They haven’t even adjusted ocelot.

You think they listen or care, jokes on you.

TheDude1

@ChewableTrash said:
They won’t adjust it.

They haven’t even adjusted ocelot.

You think they listen or care, jokes on you.

And yet you also continue post your opinions in the forums. Your whiny nihilism is not as clever as you think it is.

(Also, plenty of other cases where they've listened to feedback and nerfed things, specifically GAT.)

Janosik

@TheDude1 said:

Also, I am a bit confused by seeing outrage and calls for nerfing things most people won't ever get, like five-masterpiece loop decks

Well, by all means allow me to explain that to you!

You'd think it was insane if WOTC balanced paper MTG for casual players but not for competitive players, wouldn't you?

It really is easier to get your mits on all the best cards than some people think it is (I do have to play all the weekly events, its true, but I pretty much never play the dailies like TOTP, TG, and RevP, I don't have VIP, and I'm haven't even been playing BftA this year! Larz plays all those dailies and you should see how big a pile of jewels and crystals he has!!! It's enormous compared to mine!!!).

This is not to say that there aren't a large number of players who don't have access to the majority of the cards when they come to build decks (I do realise that plenty of players simply don't have time to play one new event every single day!) but you might be surprised at how many do!

@TheDude1 said:
but I think it would be good for folks who are pro-nerf in other circumstances to weigh in here.

I mean, yes, obviously nerf Pinnacle Emissary. Also Grist and Ocelot Pride ^_^

wraszowixuXuxi

I do like my Sharp-eyed Rookie for stuff like Myr Propagator, Persuasive Interrogators, Joleene, Lich-Knight's Conquest, or like in a build in Karn TGC to profit with one's a2 or a3.

I could understand a limit on them, but I think it should still allow for a bit - maybe 6-10 triggers for Rookie. I haven't messed with the robot yet to know what feels right for there. I work kinda in a realm of jank, and FCLedZep said it might not be a reliable combo in actual survivability when playing it yourself. Unfortunately we may need to be playing with nuke codes in the game to be doing events like Planar Chaos

wraszowixuXuxi

I don't like Ocelot though