Disabled PVP Supports

WhiteBomber

@ThisisClemFandango said:

@Borstock said:
I know a lot of people love the speed supports can add to the game, but I just hate that supports FREQUENTLY outright decide the outcome of a match. I hate that. I want the characters to be the emphasis. I want at least the obligatory hand-wave attempt at the moves you make mattering. But, in a turn 0 world, I guess I'm just a dreamer... but I'm not the only one... I hope one day you'll join us. And the MPQ world will be as one.

That's brilliant
Cause its like the song isn't it
Those last few lines are the first few in the song isn't it?
You came up with that yourself?
How very clever you are.

(This is a quote from something , I haven't let my constant need for attention turn me into a complete dwad)
(That's also a quote from something else)

P.p.s it is extremely hot in England and I'm delirous from sun stroke

In England, I believe that would make you a "Sun Bloke"

Borstock

@ThisisClemFandango said:

@Borstock said:
I know a lot of people love the speed supports can add to the game, but I just hate that supports FREQUENTLY outright decide the outcome of a match. I hate that. I want the characters to be the emphasis. I want at least the obligatory hand-wave attempt at the moves you make mattering. But, in a turn 0 world, I guess I'm just a dreamer... but I'm not the only one... I hope one day you'll join us. And the MPQ world will be as one.

That's brilliant
Cause its like the song isn't it
Those last few lines are the first few in the song isn't it?
You came up with that yourself?
How very clever you are.

(This is a quote from something , I haven't let my constant need for attention turn me into a complete dwad)
(That's also a quote from something else)

P.p.s it is extremely hot in England and I'm delirous from sun stroke

Sounds like Stewie from Family Guy talking about hitting Titanic jokes at the height of their popularity.

ThisisClemFandango

Close

One of the girl toddlers tells him he's the weakest link

KGB

@ThisisClemFandango said:

@Borstock said:
I know a lot of people love the speed supports can add to the game, but I just hate that supports FREQUENTLY outright decide the outcome of a match. I hate that. I want the characters to be the emphasis. I want at least the obligatory hand-wave attempt at the moves you make mattering. But, in a turn 0 world, I guess I'm just a dreamer... but I'm not the only one... I hope one day you'll join us. And the MPQ world will be as one.

That's brilliant
Cause its like the song isn't it
Those last few lines are the first few in the song isn't it?
You came up with that yourself?
How very clever you are.

(This is a quote from something , I haven't let my constant need for attention turn me into a complete dwad)
(That's also a quote from something else)

P.p.s it is extremely hot in England and I'm delirous from sun stroke

Do what we do in Florida - crank up the AC and have a frozen Margarita (or at least go down into the basement and ride it out).

KGB

P.S. If you tell me you don't have AC in the 21st century then you might as well tell me you still use an outhouse.

ThisisClemFandango

I have the finest outhouse in my ye olde village. We have trouble with witches but thankfully our witchfinder general still has a ducking stool.
AC has been outlawed in England as one we very rarely need it and its also clearly some sort of work of the devil.
Where does the cold come from???

Additionally our houses don't have basements

Borstock

@ThisisClemFandango said:
Close

One of the girl toddlers tells him he's the weakest link

Yes, but the "hitting these phenomenon at the height of their popularity" part of the joke was about Titanic.

DAZ0273

@KGB said:

@ThisisClemFandango said:

@Borstock said:
I know a lot of people love the speed supports can add to the game, but I just hate that supports FREQUENTLY outright decide the outcome of a match. I hate that. I want the characters to be the emphasis. I want at least the obligatory hand-wave attempt at the moves you make mattering. But, in a turn 0 world, I guess I'm just a dreamer... but I'm not the only one... I hope one day you'll join us. And the MPQ world will be as one.

That's brilliant
Cause its like the song isn't it
Those last few lines are the first few in the song isn't it?
You came up with that yourself?
How very clever you are.

(This is a quote from something , I haven't let my constant need for attention turn me into a complete dwad)
(That's also a quote from something else)

P.p.s it is extremely hot in England and I'm delirous from sun stroke

Do what we do in Florida - crank up the AC and have a frozen Margarita (or at least go down into the basement and ride it out).

KGB

P.S. If you tell me you don't have AC in the 21st century then you might as well tell me you still use an outhouse.

I have a fan! It rotates Oscillates!

entrailbucket

@Borstock said:
I know a lot of people love the speed supports can add to the game, but I just hate that supports FREQUENTLY outright decide the outcome of a match. I hate that. I want the characters to be the emphasis. I want at least the obligatory hand-wave attempt at the moves you make mattering. But, in a turn 0 world, I guess I'm just a dreamer... but I'm not the only one... I hope one day you'll join us. And the MPQ world will be as one.

If you're talking about PvE I 100% agree with you, and I wish they'd kill the free AP supports.

In PvP right now they're basically completely worthless though, because every team is running Leapfrog (when is this actually going to go away? It's not nearly fast enough).

Once they kill Leapfrog, and to a lesser extent, Arrow, things will look very different. If the metagame does come to be dominated by free AP supports then I'd hope they'll ban all of them too. I can't see a ban right now though, because they don't matter at all.

kuntilanak

Hmmm, after some thoughts, I'd say for PVP, just disable supports on AI, but let players continue using them, ala PVE style. Then everyone is happy... right? Right?

entrailbucket

@kuntilanak said:
Hmmm, after some thoughts, I'd say for PVP, just disable supports on AI, but let players continue using them, ala PVE style. Then everyone is happy... right? Right?

This would be absolutely awful, far worse than the current situation.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:

@kuntilanak said:
Hmmm, after some thoughts, I'd say for PVP, just disable supports on AI, but let players continue using them, ala PVE style. Then everyone is happy... right? Right?

This would be absolutely awful, far worse than the current situation.

Care to elaborate why?

I'm sure you are going to say something about 'defense' and 'shield hops' and 'scoring' all of which doesn't matter to 96% of PvP players (20 out of every 500 in a bracket can compete for T10 everyone else it doesn't matter because they can't get T10 or above).

So why not make things easier for 96% of the player base? That seems like a gigantic win since players LOVE winning on offense more than anything else.

KGB

Daniel2121

I currently have Leapfrog on Quicksilver for the Blue Shift event and it's still working. When is this going to take effect?

Regarding topic discussion. Yeah, Leapfrog is everywhere. I guess it's obviously calling for a nerf. But I wouldn't like to see it nerfed to oblivion (for one, I think its ability to make the character go Away is just too much, wouldn't mind having THAT removed but just keep the tile-based invisibility). I would like to see it helping characters like BIB Spidey or Zero Cochrane that have powers that trigger when they go invisible but can't go invisible very reliably. Sort of. I don't even know if that can be done but if Leapfrog is nerfed into uselessness, it just won't help those characters. Hope that made sense somehow.

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@kuntilanak said:
Hmmm, after some thoughts, I'd say for PVP, just disable supports on AI, but let players continue using them, ala PVE style. Then everyone is happy... right? Right?

This would be absolutely awful, far worse than the current situation.

Care to elaborate why?

I'm sure you are going to say something about 'defense' and 'shield hops' and 'scoring' all of which doesn't matter to 96% of PvP players (20 out of every 500 in a bracket can compete for T10 everyone else it doesn't matter because they can't get T10 or above).

So why not make things easier for 96% of the player base? That seems like a gigantic win since players LOVE winning on offense more than anything else.

KGB

It's those things.

So if those mechanics and systems don't matter, and nobody is engaging with them, why are they still there at all? Your problem isn't with the players who are competing, it's with the developers who've created a competitive system and left it in place.

revskip

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@kuntilanak said:
Hmmm, after some thoughts, I'd say for PVP, just disable supports on AI, but let players continue using them, ala PVE style. Then everyone is happy... right? Right?

This would be absolutely awful, far worse than the current situation.

Care to elaborate why?

I'm sure you are going to say something about 'defense' and 'shield hops' and 'scoring' all of which doesn't matter to 96% of PvP players (20 out of every 500 in a bracket can compete for T10 everyone else it doesn't matter because they can't get T10 or above).

So why not make things easier for 96% of the player base? That seems like a gigantic win since players LOVE winning on offense more than anything else.

KGB

The biggest thing that draws complaints is a lack of variety. Supports for good or ill do provide some variety in the teams that can be used. If you want to exacerbate the issue of seeing the same team over and over remove supports. You'll immediately go from almost no variety to actually no variety.

Also kind of crazy that you had time to poll every single MPQ user to get that 96% number. Maybe, just maybe what you think is the best solution isn't thought of that way by nearly as many people as you think. Being hyperbolic never helps.

Borstock

There was plenty of variety before supports were added to PvP.

entrailbucket

@revskip said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@kuntilanak said:
Hmmm, after some thoughts, I'd say for PVP, just disable supports on AI, but let players continue using them, ala PVE style. Then everyone is happy... right? Right?

This would be absolutely awful, far worse than the current situation.

Care to elaborate why?

I'm sure you are going to say something about 'defense' and 'shield hops' and 'scoring' all of which doesn't matter to 96% of PvP players (20 out of every 500 in a bracket can compete for T10 everyone else it doesn't matter because they can't get T10 or above).

So why not make things easier for 96% of the player base? That seems like a gigantic win since players LOVE winning on offense more than anything else.

KGB

The biggest thing that draws complaints is a lack of variety. Supports for good or ill do provide some variety in the teams that can be used. If you want to exacerbate the issue of seeing the same team over and over remove supports. You'll immediately go from almost no variety to actually no variety.

Also kind of crazy that you had time to poll every single MPQ user to get that 96% number. Maybe, just maybe what you think is the best solution isn't thought of that way by nearly as many people as you think. Being hyperbolic never helps.

The weekly character boosts would still allow for some variety (I hope?).

I think he's just counting people in brackets and saying anybody outside the top 20 doesn't care and doesn't meaningfully engage with PvP, and like, fine, but then why is that stuff there at all? If what the huge majority of players want is a model that's PvP in name only, where you do 10 or 25 fights or whatever then call it a day, why haven't they just given us that? Why insist on the ELO stuff and the leaderboards and whatever else if that's not the game that 96% of serious daily players want to play?

bbigler

It's hard to both perfectly balance the elements in a game while also creating new ones. (But if you have a big enough and competent team that should be doable). The point is to keep people interested and variety is the key to that. So if you take away the top 4 supports, then the next 4 will take their place and be everywhere. That's why balancing is so important, but players will test and test and test until they find the best team available and then everyone uses it (or chases after it). Even if that "best" team is only marginally better. Personally, I prefer variety even if the results are marginally lower.

Here's my suggestions (just for fun):

Leap Frog - the character goes invisible or away for 1 turn, no invisibility tile! It's basically nuke insurance but still beatable.

Eros Arrow - make enemy target not random, but the damage reduction is only 35% (not 80%!)

Fantasticar - somehow limit cascades to 2 extra matches, no more!

Copter - again, limit cascades to 2 extra. It's still useful but won't feel unfair.

Daniel2121

I found the most annoying thing about Leapfrog is sending the supported character Away. I'm fine with the invisibility as it is. Not many ways to counter the Away status however. The main one in my mind is just SHEB (Space Hunter Elsa Bloodstone, or alternatively just 5* Elsa) who just dropped here recently.

KGB

@Daniel2121 said:
I found the most annoying thing about Leapfrog is sending the supported character Away. I'm fine with the invisibility as it is. Not many ways to counter the Away status however. The main one in my mind is just SHEB (Space Hunter Elsa Bloodstone, or alternatively just 5* Elsa) who just dropped here recently.

That's interesting because they are only away for 1 turn then they are back and you and resume beating them to death. I much prefer this is what happens.

The invisibility component is a lot more annoying because if you can't match the tile the character can remain invisible for a very long time doing damage to you while you can't do anything to them (minus AoE).

TBH, it's a bit surprising the invisible component of Leapfrog hasn't been nerfed before this. Imagine how many newer rosters must be using under covered 4 stars to win the weekly crash with Leapfrog by going invisible on turn 1 and remaining that way until they win.

KGB

KGB

@entrailbucket said:

@revskip said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@kuntilanak said:
Hmmm, after some thoughts, I'd say for PVP, just disable supports on AI, but let players continue using them, ala PVE style. Then everyone is happy... right? Right?

This would be absolutely awful, far worse than the current situation.

Care to elaborate why?

I'm sure you are going to say something about 'defense' and 'shield hops' and 'scoring' all of which doesn't matter to 96% of PvP players (20 out of every 500 in a bracket can compete for T10 everyone else it doesn't matter because they can't get T10 or above).

So why not make things easier for 96% of the player base? That seems like a gigantic win since players LOVE winning on offense more than anything else.

KGB

The biggest thing that draws complaints is a lack of variety. Supports for good or ill do provide some variety in the teams that can be used. If you want to exacerbate the issue of seeing the same team over and over remove supports. You'll immediately go from almost no variety to actually no variety.

Also kind of crazy that you had time to poll every single MPQ user to get that 96% number. Maybe, just maybe what you think is the best solution isn't thought of that way by nearly as many people as you think. Being hyperbolic never helps.

The weekly character boosts would still allow for some variety (I hope?).

I think he's just counting people in brackets and saying anybody outside the top 20 doesn't care and doesn't meaningfully engage with PvP, and like, fine, but then why is that stuff there at all? If what the huge majority of players want is a model that's PvP in name only, where you do 10 or 25 fights or whatever then call it a day, why haven't they just given us that? Why insist on the ELO stuff and the leaderboards and whatever else if that's not the game that 96% of serious daily players want to play?

No one outside the Devs knows the answer to that.

The most likely reason is development time. Also, imagine the pages of complaint threads if they took away placement rewards in PvP. Why the audacity of removing rewards even if it's just 100 ISO for finishing dead last (500th). In other words even though the rewards are tiny, the outrage over losing them would not be worth doing so. So 96% of the players just play PvP to collect more rewards (progression and placement regardless of how meager it is).

I also suspect one reason fewer play PvP is because the loss rate in PvP is much higher than in PvE. So making supports only on offense would increase the win rate in PvP and may in fact make more players play PvP.

KGB