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  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,509 Chairperson of the Boards

    They could totally make an immortal affiliation and only allow 1 immortal character per team.
    That would probably fix this issue over night.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    Another example of a minor change that would address the problem without changing rules to eliminate strategic targeting. I would expect Shulk to have her limits removed if that option was adopted.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,843 Chairperson of the Boards

    Again with this...I do not want them to "change the rules" to "optimize my roster."

    There is only one rule, and that rule is "the developers can change any character they want, for any reason, at any time." They've turned the best character into the worst, and the worst into the best, many times over the years. They're in charge, not the players, and the decisions they make are arbitrary and capricious.

    The only way to optimize for that "rule" is to make sure you have everyone and they're all high level. If you skip a guy, you risk them buffing him into the best character. If you go all in, you risk them nerfing him into the worst.

    Minmaxing is, and has always been, a way to win in the short term, but it never pays off in the long term.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,324 Chairperson of the Boards

    @HoundofShadow said:
    A lot of good characters don't get nerf threads is because they are glass cannon.

    To be fair I have said on more than one occasion that Shang Chi should really be nerfed because he really is far too OP. He might not deserve it but then again

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    Again with this...I do not want them to "change the rules" to "optimize my roster."

    There is only one rule, and that rule is "the developers can change any character they want, for any reason, at any time." They've turned the best character into the worst, and the worst into the best, many times over the years. They're in charge, not the players, and the decisions they make are arbitrary and capricious.

    The only way to optimize for that "rule" is to make sure you have everyone and they're all high level. If you skip a guy, you risk them buffing him into the best character. If you go all in, you risk them nerfing him into the worst.

    Minmaxing is, and has always been, a way to win in the short term, but it never pays off in the long term.

    I don't know.
    Demiurge did the nerfing, BCS has done the buffing, so far.
    The only guy Demiurge buffed was X-Force, and that was a million years ago.
    Then they nerfed him, BCS brought him back.

    I don't remember Demiurge buffing any 5s that were top tier afterwards.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,843 Chairperson of the Boards

    Xforce was the big one, and that's when I decided I was never going to get caught out again. They did do some other ones in the early days, and there have been a few cases where a new character turned somebody old into a key combo piece.

    Mostly the nerfs are what causes it though -- when they kill the top guy the new meta is unpredictable and fun.

    Anyway what has changed about the "rule" now that there are new developers? They still have the absolute right, and the ability, to change any character in any way they want at any time. Are you willing to trust that they won't use that power? Would you trust it to the tune of thousands of dollars or years of hoarding?

    We are not in charge. That's what makes it fun!

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,324 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:

    show previous quotes

    I don't know.
    Demiurge did the nerfing, BCS has done the buffing, so far.
    The only guy Demiurge buffed was X-Force, and that was a million years ago.
    Then they nerfed him, BCS brought him back.

    I don't remember Demiurge buffing any 5s that were top tier afterwards.

    When Demiurge buffed 4* Kingpin they sort'a nerfed him, lol! So they struggled a bit in this area.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    No of course they can do what they want, but I'd like to see how they handle Chasm before deciding on faceslaps or praises.
    If they have a lighter hand than Demi with... downward adjustments - and let's face it, anything other than a chopping block will be lighter - then maybe there's no reason to fear nerfs.

    People will still rage, of course, it's what they do.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,679 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:
    To be fair I have said on more than one occasion that Shang Chi should really be nerfed because he really is far too OP. He might not deserve it but then again

    He is definitely OP on offense in the hands of a player. In defense? Not at all. He can easily be taken down no matter how high he is on defense. The AI does not know how to play him optimally.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,843 Chairperson of the Boards

    I'm really interested to see what they do too, but nerfs are always relative. The problem with Gambit (and most of the others, really) is that they took him from a 15 out of 10 down to like a 7 out of 10, while several other characters stayed in the 12 to 13 range. It felt like a huge hit even though they basically just made him average. If they make Chasm average and leave all the other overpowered guys around, it'll feel similarly huge.

    Of course, if they, say, reduce his health by 1%, thousands of players will turn up here screaming and crying about a "bait and switch" or whatever, and how they've killed the game, so they really can't win anyway.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,509 Chairperson of the Boards

    There are plenty of powerful characters that the AI does not know how to use.

    The real question is this... in PvP can you beat Shang Chi? Yes...easily...he is always the last man I leave standing...he is not a real problem in PvP.

    He is top tier in PvE and near trash tier in PvP. He does not warrant a nerf.

    In PvE is he the part of the fastest team? No. I am openly anti-nerf...but if you nerf SC he will be useless in both PvE and PvP, and what does the community gain from that? Nothing.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    SC+AC is part of the fastest teams in pves.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,509 Chairperson of the Boards

    The fastest team is still iHulk, Okoye, Warlock unless anything has changed in the past few months.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Some player with 550 SC said that he could get T1 or T5. I can't his nick in the forum.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    Not this t10 discussion again.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,843 Chairperson of the Boards

    "Bitterness and jealousy" lol. I'm definitely jealous of the fact that all the hoarders will be completely screwed when they nerf Chasm, while I'll continue doing great!

    If you don't hate everyone else who plays this game, what are we even doing here? It's a competitive game...I hate all of you, and all of everyone else, with the passion of a thousand burning suns. I want all of you to have an awful time, and I want all of you to quit.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,843 Chairperson of the Boards

    I promise you this game is so much more fun when it's competitive. You don't have to compete -- you can just show up and collect your rewards, but why? The rewards can only be used to play the game, to give you a more competitive roster!

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    PVE is the competitive part.
    PVP is a cupcake eating competition beyond 1200 except for s2 and 5.
    And people who play there know what they sign up for.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,843 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think some players prefer not to compete, and that's ok, but that doesn't change the undeniable fact that it's literally impossible to play without competing. If you finish top 100 in PvE, someone finishes #101 and misses those rewards -- and it's because of you. People will be like, "oh who cares, they weren't really trying," but you can't know that unless you're asking them, and you're not.

    In PvP it's even more obvious. You cannot earn points without taking points away from others. Everyone you attack is a human player who exists and loses points every time you attack them. You can't send your -60 along with a note with your intentions, like "oh sorry, nothing personal, you just had the easiest team, I'm not competing."

    You can try to pretend that other players aren't trying, or don't care, or that they're just AI generated enemies, but they're not and you can't know their intentions.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,324 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    show previous quotes

    He is definitely OP on offense in the hands of a player. In defense? Not at all. He can easily be taken down no matter how high he is on defense. The AI does not know how to play him optimally.

    Oh I agree but his ability to punch up and not even need to be champed is not balanced in the slightest! You shouldn't be able to climb with him the way you can. Then who cares about defence because you can leave a trolly defence team out. He also single handedly reduced CL10 to a joke.

    Shang Chi is my highest covered character BTW, so don't mistake this as some sort of grudge or bad faith. Lol. Just sometimes a spade is a spade. He is waaaaaay too good and I love him but I don't think he is good for the game to be honest.

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