The ChaHulk meta

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  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Slices joined do play a part. Slice 1 will give you a better selection, compared to other slices. And looking at your enemy teams, are you a 550 or high 5xx player?

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 3,012 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    @HoundofShadow said:
    Slices joined do play a part. Slice 1 will give you a better selection, compared to other slices. And looking at your enemy teams, are you a 550 or high 5xx player?

    A 516 Apocalypse and 515 Okoye are my highest.

    Mind you, I don't object to having to face 550 teams. I used to attack 550 teams all the time. I'd win some. I'd lose some. I can live with that. They have a stronger roster. They should beat me some of the time. And I have a 480 Chasm myself. This meta is just a nightmare.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    At first a chahulk team rewarded 75 points. However it's not the case anymore, now it's no more than 50 due to points scarcity.
    So you will face a long battle for to earn just 50 points. It has some resemblance with the present inflation: it's needed more work for having less.
    The points scarcity are due to players not wanting to face chahulk teams.
    The hulkoye team meta was awful and was health pack deterrent however it was thrilling and if everything was running ok, it was fast.
    Chahulk meta is health pack consuming but is slow as many times is just about killing ihulk 3 times if there is no AP and a good setting for AoE.
    New character riri could be capable of defeating them easily with SW help, still chasm will grant the always slow battle.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards

    It remains to be seen if New Riri is actually viable. I've tried using Sersi or 5Witch and it can take several turns to get 3 purple. Maybe the charge tile stuff can overcome that. I remain more interested in a real, meaningful counter team than a nerf, so I hope that's true.

  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 585 Critical Contributor

    @Borstock said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @BriMan2222 said:
    Maybe before mega 5 star boosts, but I almost never saw wanda/collosus in pvp unless the boost list for the week was really bad.

    @Borstock said:
    Once they introduced the 5* boosteds, there was no meta where you could just leave the team out and expect to not get hit. Not ColWanda, not anyone. The only players who could do that were the 550 whales and even they couldn't do it if the boosted list was strong enough. So, that's just incorrect.

    Shhh… we don’t talk about the time it was actually diverse and a large majority of peoples’ rosters were being used. It was always like this and will always be like this!

    Chasm has absolutely DESTROYED the diversity in PvP. You hit 800, ChaHulk is all you see. If you DARE to try to climb with any other team, you are instantly attacked by anyone and everyone looking for something else to hit besides a ChaHulk team. And you stand out, because no one is using anything else.

    But hey, the 550's in this thread really don't want Chasm nerfed, so they're going to give you all the reasons why "everything's fine" and "this is just the next meta". But this is, BY FAR, the strongest meta this game has ever had, and it was introduced at a time when there was actual diversity in the game.

    I hear from a lot of 550 Chasm users that they hate what he's done to the game and how they feel forced to use him.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 3,012 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    @killahKlown said:

    @Borstock said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @BriMan2222 said:
    Maybe before mega 5 star boosts, but I almost never saw wanda/collosus in pvp unless the boost list for the week was really bad.

    @Borstock said:
    Once they introduced the 5* boosteds, there was no meta where you could just leave the team out and expect to not get hit. Not ColWanda, not anyone. The only players who could do that were the 550 whales and even they couldn't do it if the boosted list was strong enough. So, that's just incorrect.

    Shhh… we don’t talk about the time it was actually diverse and a large majority of peoples’ rosters were being used. It was always like this and will always be like this!

    Chasm has absolutely DESTROYED the diversity in PvP. You hit 800, ChaHulk is all you see. If you DARE to try to climb with any other team, you are instantly attacked by anyone and everyone looking for something else to hit besides a ChaHulk team. And you stand out, because no one is using anything else.

    But hey, the 550's in this thread really don't want Chasm nerfed, so they're going to give you all the reasons why "everything's fine" and "this is just the next meta". But this is, BY FAR, the strongest meta this game has ever had, and it was introduced at a time when there was actual diversity in the game.

    I hear from a lot of 550 Chasm users that they hate what he's done to the game and how they feel forced to use him.

    I will accept your word that there may be more dissent at those heights than I am aware of.

    I also understand that someone who hoarded for 1-2 years to max champ the latest and greatest might be FURIOUS to see that meta nerfed into the useless pile. And I don't want that. I have never called for a nerf before. Not with Bishop, Polaris, WorthyCap, Gambit, or anybody... (slightest possibility I wanted iHulk nerfed before I understood him better, I don't remember).

    But they need to calm Chasm down. If they don't want to nerf him, he needs a legit HARD counter.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards

    Fixing the Silver Surfer Black Hole TU would help. I run Chasm in non-iHulk teams and am often swimming in TU ap. I think Silver Surfer and the potential of mThor/Riri shows that they are working on non-nerf solutions.

  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,213 Chairperson of the Boards

    Personally I've been using Apoc/ Bobby / Jane in simulator to counter this team.

    Go for blue first as if Jane's passive targets the CDs, it will stun the enemy team. Enough Blue and you can stun lock a team easily.
    Throw a Apoc Yellow on the board, Bobby Green and save up black for the instant nuke.

    Team works surprisingly well.

  • killahKlown
    killahKlown Posts: 585 Critical Contributor

    @Sekilicious said:
    Fixing the Silver Surfer Black Hole TU would help. I run Chasm in non-iHulk teams and am often swimming in TU ap. I think Silver Surfer and the potential of mThor/Riri shows that they are working on non-nerf solutions.

    I thought Surfer was a worthy attempt but it isn't reliable enough. And too expensive to be that unreliable

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    There are plenty of viable pick-3 solutions. We need a realistic pick-2 option. You can do it with the boost list semi-reliably as long as you have somebody decent boosted. But if the boost week is soft, you're kind of in trouble in normal PVP. And yes, if you are somebody saying "these teams are easy. But also I never push to 1200" then I don't think your opinion is adding a ton to the conversation, because above 900 it's Big Chasms pretty much exclusively even if below that amount you have diversity.

  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    @Borstock said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @BriMan2222 said:
    Maybe before mega 5 star boosts, but I almost never saw wanda/collosus in pvp unless the boost list for the week was really bad.

    @Borstock said:
    Once they introduced the 5* boosteds, there was no meta where you could just leave the team out and expect to not get hit. Not ColWanda, not anyone. The only players who could do that were the 550 whales and even they couldn't do it if the boosted list was strong enough. So, that's just incorrect.

    Shhh… we don’t talk about the time it was actually diverse and a large majority of peoples’ rosters were being used. It was always like this and will always be like this!

    Chasm has absolutely DESTROYED the diversity in PvP. You hit 800, ChaHulk is all you see. If you DARE to try to climb with any other team, you are instantly attacked by anyone and everyone looking for something else to hit besides a ChaHulk team. And you stand out, because no one is using anything else.

    But hey, the 550's in this thread really don't want Chasm nerfed, so they're going to give you all the reasons why "everything's fine" and "this is just the next meta". But this is, BY FAR, the strongest meta this game has ever had, and it was introduced at a time when there was actual diversity in the game.

    Since I don't have 550's my opinion that this is another meta has no merit?

    100% chasm/ihulk is harder to hit than colossus/Wanda.

    However, same thing happened when colossus/Wanda was the A team it was run (at least on final climb) over all the lower B team boosted characters.

    If the boosted characters are good then they are run. Just as all the Qs were mthor/colossus last bunch of PvP.

    We get the same Qs. It's just chasm is a harder team so you've forgotten what Qs were like before the Chasm.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Every year, we have a couple new flavours that players want nerfed.

    2018: Gambit
    2019: Bishop / WorthyCap
    2020: Hulkokoye ; Britty
    2021: Wanda/Colossus

    As history has proven, we've weathered through all these meta without those 5* being nerfed since 2020.

    The flavour of 2022 happens to be Hulk/Chasm. There are already counters (+ boosted 5*) around them but those counters are not good enough for those with higher/more stringent requirements.

    Come mid 2023, we'll have another new nerf thread, probably targeted at Dr Thor and her new partner, after Chasm/Hulk are countered "effectively".

  • Glockoma
    Glockoma Posts: 555 Critical Contributor

    @HoundofShadow said:
    Every year, we have a couple new flavours that players want nerfed.

    2018: Gambit
    2019: Bishop / WorthyCap
    2020: Hulkokoye ; Britty
    2021: Wanda/Colossus

    As history has proven, we've weathered through all these meta without those 5* being nerfed since 2020.

    The flavour of 2022 happens to be Hulk/Chasm. There are already counters (+ boosted 5*) around them but those counters are not good enough for those with higher/more stringent requirements.

    Come mid 2023, we'll have another new nerf thread, probably targeted at Dr Thor and her new partner, after Chasm/Hulk are countered "effectively".

    My thoughts exactly. That and I just walked up from ~100ish in Black Panther event and got my 1200 in less than 2 hours left in event. My Chasm/iHulk is 486/480 and I mirror matched from 600’s to 1000 or so.

    Not really difficult or terribly difficult when you get the hang of the cycle of reviving your own Chasm to take out the other one. It’s all timing and after a few matches you just catch on to the one trick this pony provides.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    @HoundofShadow said:
    ... There are already counters (+ boosted 5*) around them but those counters are not good >enough for those with higher/more stringent requirements...

    I see you make the "higher, more stringent requirements" remark alot, and I'm not sure it's really warranted. I'd personally like a counter that works, and by works I mean not scraping by some of the time, and only by luck and the skin of its teeth when it does. I don't think a mirror match is a "counter" personally.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    I'm just pointing out things that I've seen over the years. An effective counter is only considered a counter if it fits that player's definition of what effective means. For example, some prefer counters that shut down the other teams almost immediately. For example, Wanda shutting down iHulkoye. Before that, we had BRB/Kitty but they were too slow.

    For others, an effective counter to a meta must also deter opponents from attacking them. Then, we have those who wants counter that doesn't cause them to use healthpacks each match. Also, we have those expect matches to be finished within 1-1.5 minutes.

    As you can see, some requirements are pretty stringent or difficult to accomplished, depending on who the meta is. If it doesn't pass their requirements, they are not considered a counter. So, they would rather pay skip tax, lower their expectations or ask for nerfs.

    As far as Chasm/iHulk is concerned, it's a given you'll take damage and eat some healthpacks, depending on the counters you bring along. Let's lay this out rationally:

    At the start of the game, chances are your entire team get stunned, you're likely to eat 5500 AoE, 2k from iHulk's tile destruction, 6-7k from Chasm's match damage and another 10k target damage from Chasm's passive damage. Whoever is in the middle will eat a minimum of 24k damage. This is for baby champed MMR.

    Unless you bring someone with true heal or damage reduction, you'll be using 2-3 healthpacks each match. Secondly, being aware of Chasm build will help you make better choices. A 5/3/5 means he needs 4 Chasm tiles, instead of 3 to revive. 3/5/5 means he put one Chasm tile and destroys 2 aps, instead of putting 2 and destroying 2 or 3 aps. Also, the level difference between iHulk and Chasm will also make some differences in your strategy.

    For counters, each set of counter has their strengths and weaknesses.

    As far as luck is concerned, it happens all the time. For example, SC is glass cannon. There are times where I still lose to him due to him getting lucky cascades. If you are targeting Chasm/iHulk with counters, there are times I still lose due to them getting lucky cascades.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    The pick-2 “counters” I’ve seen proposed only win some of the time, and by the skin of their teeth. The criteria for a counter is really just “wins more than they lose, ideally can do it fast enough that you can come out ahead on points in PVP rather than so slow you come out behind, and it needs to work above 900pts not just below.”

    Losing because you are unlucky is fine; but winning because you are lucky is not a real counter.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2022

    Based on what the dev said, the playerbase are divided between Chasm. This is fact. Nerfing Chasm will make one group happy and the other group unhappy. On the other hand, not nerfing Chasm will have the opposite effect. That's why counter play is always the best solution.

    On one side, we have players who

    1) find him fun
    2) have adapted to his playstyle
    3) have found counters to that team

    On the other side, we have players who

    1) find him not fun to play with
    2) not fun to play against
    3) want variety in pvps

    In the last one or two pvps, I still see Ronan/Sersi or Ronan and other variations. Personally, I rather face Chasm/iHulk than Ronan/Sersi. And that's what I did: skipping Ronan/Sersi and aim for Chasm/iHulk instead.

    One thing I find strange is that Chasm/iHulk provide strong deterrent, which means you've an easier time to climb to 1200 in slice 1, as proven by players who don't seem to like Chasm/iHulk meta. The positive side of this is that it's also easier to climb pvps to 1200 due to their high points. As far as pvps is concerned, I'm a practical person. If winning 60-70 points from Chasm/iHulk helps me to hit 1200, I'm fine with it. I've tried using Chasm/iHulk to climb and they are good deterrent. However, I still get beaten by Ronan and his teammates. Even though Chasm/iHulk is a good deterrent, it didn't stop me from using Ronan or Sersi to climb.

    As for counters that win by skin of their teeth, I wonder if you could give examples of that? Do you mean winning the match with only <10,000 hp left or <5000 hp left?

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