***** Elektra (Woman Without Fear) *****

12467…13

Comments

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    There's always match-4, but none of us can guarantee a match-4 of the colour of our choice right at the start of the turn, unless we are using certain characters. Generally, it's all RNG. 

    Apocalypse red deals damage immediately but you can't choose who you want to deal the damage to because it's default to the lowest health enemy. And he can't stun opponents. As for Elektra's red getting matched, it's up to the player's skills to ensure the success of her red power. If you fire her power when there's a red match-3 available and the AI is likely to chase red, then it's on the players. 

    Since we are comparing Apocalypse with Elektra, using 1v1 will be easier. If we start using 3v3, there are a lot of possibilities to discuss and it will never end.

    If players start using their feelings to gauage how much damage should be dealt, then it's as good as saying you want more power creep faster. Her red deals 2316 damage ap, which is better than many other powers, using damage per ap as a comparison. Reduce her power to 7 ap and it's 2978.71, which would be higher than meta's. 


    I see!  So Elektra is actually *better* than Apocalypse! 

    I expect that she'll completely take over the meta based on these calculations.
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,179 Chairperson of the Boards
    Only time will tell how good a character is, but I compare characters by how many and how good their powers are.  For example: 

    Power assessment: 

    Shang - 3 Great powers
    Ultron - 1 Good
    Gamora - 2 Good
    Sersi - 1 Great + 2 OK
    Big Wheel - 1 Great + 1 OK
    Abby - 2 OK powers
    Elektra - 1 Great + 2 Good

    For comparison: 
    Apocalypse - 3 Great
    BRB - 3 Great
    Thor - 1 Amazing power + 1 Good 
    Okoye - 1 Amazing power + 1 Good
    IHulk - 1 Amazing power
    Kitty - 2 Great + 1 OK
    Wanda - 1 Amazing + 1 OK
    Colossus - 1 Great + 1 Good
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2022
    TheRiddler said:
    Maybe we should just stop comparing characters to Apocalypse? I seem to remember Ronan, Odin and Gamora all getting compared to him as well.
    Why isn't that a fair comparison?  Does Apocalypse have more stars than those characters?  Is he more rare than they are?

    In fact, Apocalypse is a super old Classic legend, while those characters are much newer.  If you believe there's power creep, we should expect the newer characters to be much better than he is.
  • TheEyeDoctorsWife
    TheEyeDoctorsWife Posts: 832 Critical Contributor
    HoundofShadow said:
    There's always match-4, but none of us can guarantee a match-4 of the colour of our choice right at the start of the turn, unless we are using certain characters. Generally, it's all RNG. 

    Apocalypse red deals damage immediately but you can't choose who you want to deal the damage to because it's default to the lowest health enemy. And he can't stun opponents. As for Elektra's red getting matched, it's up to the player's skills to ensure the success of her red power. If you fire her power when there's a red match-3 available and the AI is likely to chase red, then it's on the players. 

    Since we are comparing Apocalypse with Elektra, using 1v1 will be easier. If we start using 3v3, there are a lot of possibilities to discuss and it will never end.

    If players start using their feelings to gauage how much damage should be dealt, then it's as good as saying you want more power creep faster. Her red deals 2316 damage ap, which is better than many other powers, using damage per ap as a comparison. Reduce her power to 7 ap and it's 2978.71, which would be higher than meta's. 


    How dare you, sir ! No one here likes statistical data or facts. Today’s player understands only one thing , AP cost. We don’t want to wait for 1 extra color match for an active power. Any character the devs have the audacity to give us with 9+ AP is instant trash. 🤣
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's difficult to compare characters if they aren't in the same category.

    Odin is a tank for allies, and creates fortified and strong strike tiles when certain conditions are met. He heals allies. He also has some ap controls with his red. His red deals 1420 damage per ap.

    Gamora counters defensive characters and she's anti-Elektra. Her yellow repeater will override Elektra's trap tiles.  You can even bring Valkyrie in against Elektra and all her trap tiles will be overwritten with yellow strike tiles. 

    As for Ronan, he's probably the closest to Elektra since both are kind of tactical, but Ronan is much more offensive than Elektra.

    If we compare only one power of one character with one power of another character, there'll never be a fair comparison. 



  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    Except it's not at all difficult to compare characters from different categories.  There are at least two quite popular threads in the characters forum that rank all of the characters in order. 

    Are you saying that any attempt to rank characters is invalid?  In a game with limited resources, players must decide where to spend those resources, and they often decide by comparing them.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    As a stun power, 2 turns is meh. It finish too soon.
    And as a damage cd, 20k is nothing. And in 2 turns anything can happen. 
    So I fail to understand how it can be considered a good power, per 9 AP.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    Something to consider for those saying “both take 3 matches” is that that is the first fire; you have 2 AP banked up towards your second fire with Apocalypse’s 7 AP, and…0 banked up with a 9ap power. So it’s 3 red match’s followed by a 2-turn fingers crossed wait every time. That power is demonstrably not as good.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    I do think the purple is stealing 3 passively, and the active component is just so that it does the passive effect immediately when you change the type.
  • Seph1roth5
    Seph1roth5 Posts: 481 Mover and Shaker
    bbigler said:
    I think people have gotten spoiled with 7 AP powers and think that 9 AP is too much.  Did we think Dr Strange’s 9 Blue AP stun & hit was too expensive? No, we thought it was great.  Any power between 7 - 9 AP takes 3 matches to get anyway (unless you’re constantly using AP boosts).  Elektra’s 9 Red AP stun & hit is not expensive, it’s priced correctly for what you get.  

    Her yellow is an amazing bargain though.  With a yellow battery, this would be even better. 

    I would bet her purple passive steals Grocket strikes on battle start, buffs them and reduces the enemies. Defaulting to strikes is more useful than attack or protect.  

    That example is more my point lol.  For the same cost Dr. strange does damage, stuns, AND drains AP.
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,179 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bad said:
    As a stun power, 2 turns is meh. It finish too soon.
    And as a damage cd, 20k is nothing. And in 2 turns anything can happen. 
    So I fail to understand how it can be considered a good power, per 9 AP.
    My assessment tier goes: 
    Bad => OK => Good => Great => Amazing

    So, “good” is in the middle, meaning it’s playable. OK powers are playable but weak. 
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,179 Chairperson of the Boards
    entrailbucket said:
    Except it's not at all difficult to compare characters from different categories.  There are at least two quite popular threads in the characters forum that rank all of the characters in order. 

    Are you saying that any attempt to rank characters is invalid?  In a game with limited resources, players must decide where to spend those resources, and they often decide by comparing them.
    Yes, we need to compare characters but comparing them is still difficult given the huge amount of variables involved.  We can compare individual powers but a character’s powers are meant to be played together.  We can try to compare similar characters such as offensive, defensive, batteries, board control, special tiles, etc …. but we’re still comparing apples to oranges.  

    Many times character’s powers are a mix of the types stated above. This Elektra is a good example. Then it’s like we’re comparing a pasta salad with a stir fry.  
    P.S. Colossus is a potato, he’s bland & boring, but gets the job done
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Unless you are using boost, all their powers require 3 match-3. Besides, we are comparing just the red power.

    If we want to add in Apocalypse's yellow boost, then we need to throw in Elektra's yellow to even out the field.

    450 Apocalypse's red will deal 12886 x 4 or 51, 544 damage. So, the first 3 hit of Apocalypse's red will be reduced by 50%. So, we have (6443 * 3) + 12886 = 32, 215 damage. So, his damage per ap will be 32315/14 = 2301.07

    Elektra, on the other hand, would have dealt a total of 20851 + (8688*3) = 46915 damage. Her damage per ap would be 3127.66.

    As you can see, Elektra's damage per ap on a level playing field is even better than Apocalypse and his boost. 

    What can be seen is that they have different roles. Apocalypse is an all out offense character, whereas Elektra is a tactical/defensive character. In 1 v 1, Elektra can be better than Apocalypse.

    This is a pretty poor comparison. You are ignoring a lot of variables that have a huge effect on the value of the powers (e.g., Elektra takes 2 turns to resolve and only does damage of the CD survives, and you are assuming that all 3 trap tiles are up when apoc's red is cast).  Plus you also ignore that apoc's damage boost can apply multiple times once cast, so it's value will go up as matches progress.
    This is like claiming  5* Doc Oc's green is the most efficient power because it could do infinite damage for "just" 18ap.  Technically true if you ignore all the steps required to achieve that outcome.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    bbigler said:
    entrailbucket said:
    Except it's not at all difficult to compare characters from different categories.  There are at least two quite popular threads in the characters forum that rank all of the characters in order. 

    Are you saying that any attempt to rank characters is invalid?  In a game with limited resources, players must decide where to spend those resources, and they often decide by comparing them.
    Yes, we need to compare characters but comparing them is still difficult given the huge amount of variables involved.  We can compare individual powers but a character’s powers are meant to be played together.  We can try to compare similar characters such as offensive, defensive, batteries, board control, special tiles, etc …. but we’re still comparing apples to oranges.  

    Many times character’s powers are a mix of the types stated above. This Elektra is a good example. Then it’s like we’re comparing a pasta salad with a stir fry.  
    P.S. Colossus is a potato, he’s bland & boring, but gets the job done
    Sort of?  Ranking characters in the middle tiers can be pretty difficult.  Ranking characters with complex powersets or characters that rely on specific synergy can be complicated.

    I don't think it's at all difficult to say that Apocalypse is a better character than Elektra, though.  That doesn't mean Elektra is garbage or useless, I actually think she's just fine.  But she is objectively not as good as Apocalypse, and I don't see that as a controversial opinion in any way.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    That's why it's difficult to compare characters. What players have are preferences for certain styles.

    Many players, based on comments in past characters threads, prefer direct, cheap and high damage. They hate unfortified cds and repeaters tiles. They hate anything that takes more than 1 turn to activate. They don't like trap tiles either. I would say it's pretty easy to predict the responses. 

    If the dev were to use the above as critieria to create characters' powers, I find that the game would be boring, and power creep will creep up even faster with such type of power design.  

    Anyway, meta characters should be coming around April-June, based on past two years' meta releases. In the meantime, you'll still be stuck with one or two more mediocre or average 5* releases. 


  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    Elektra can be objectively worse than Apocalypse and still be a perfectly enjoyable character for you to use.  Those things aren't mutually exclusive.  She's not better than him but she doesn't have to be, because you don't care about that.

    I really like using bad or mediocre characters because it's fun.  It's a challenge to use them but I can usually still win.  That doesn't mean they're not mediocre!  The game is much easier, and much more boring, when you only use the good characters.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2022
    I've been trying to use the term "less good" to avoid trigging people who hear "worse" and want to assume we mean "trash tier."

    Counter-play characters like all versions of Elektra mostly are are neat, but I would say that the only one that's truly good is probably 5* Wanda. I'd like this character to work, and I think she'll be fun enough though.

    I would also say that Apocalypse is a rarity, a character worth playing for all three of his powers. most of the super good characters in this game have one power that is so useful that it doesn't even matter what else they do (okoye, kitty, really Thor is like this, i'm sure loads of others)
  • tonypq
    tonypq Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Thinking of her red repeater just reminds me of how when I'd use 5Carol, her repeater would never go off. I wanted to like her red, but at least for me it was a nightmare to use. It would either get matched or destroyed before it could do anything. Quite often the repeater would get dropped right next to other red tiles and match itself before a single tick could happen, that was always a whole lot of fun. 

    In this case at least you get 2 turns of stun if Elektras repeater is matched. Still not great for 9 AP and even less so if you're constantly missing out on the chunk of damage lost if the repeater is destroyed. 

    I agree with others purple is expensive but the passive portion adds more value. Yellow is a pretty nice defensive ability and Swiss army knife. How good she'll ultimately be on her own or with others really revolves all around her yellow, I don't think red/purple will sway battles a whole lot. 

    As cheap as her yellow is, I can't tell you how many times I've used my Apoc and was dumbfounded why it was taking me so long to get the AP to fire his yellow. Bad boards happen very often and or AP tug of war if there are characters on the enemy team prioritizing yellow matches. It's nice her yellow nets AP when traps are destroyed to help self fuel it. But there may be plenty of times she might not be helping out a whole lot if you struggle for a while to get the yellow AP needed. With Shang-Chi and other nukers in game, she could get burned down pretty fast before her yellow has any impact at all. 

    She's still pretty interesting with her yellow possibly making an some fun defensive team with others. 
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,179 Chairperson of the Boards
    entrailbucket said:
    bbigler said:
    entrailbucket said:
    Except it's not at all difficult to compare characters from different categories.  There are at least two quite popular threads in the characters forum that rank all of the characters in order. 

    Are you saying that any attempt to rank characters is invalid?  In a game with limited resources, players must decide where to spend those resources, and they often decide by comparing them.
    Yes, we need to compare characters but comparing them is still difficult given the huge amount of variables involved.  We can compare individual powers but a character’s powers are meant to be played together.  We can try to compare similar characters such as offensive, defensive, batteries, board control, special tiles, etc …. but we’re still comparing apples to oranges.  

    Many times character’s powers are a mix of the types stated above. This Elektra is a good example. Then it’s like we’re comparing a pasta salad with a stir fry.  
    P.S. Colossus is a potato, he’s bland & boring, but gets the job done
    Sort of?  Ranking characters in the middle tiers can be pretty difficult.  Ranking characters with complex powersets or characters that rely on specific synergy can be complicated.

    I don't think it's at all difficult to say that Apocalypse is a better character than Elektra, though.  That doesn't mean Elektra is garbage or useless, I actually think she's just fine.  But she is objectively not as good as Apocalypse, and I don't see that as a controversial opinion in any way.
    Right, she’s not a top 10 character, but I think she’s still very good, above average, 4 out of 5 stars.  Probably a top 20 character.  We’ll have to see how much play she gets after people have had a chance to champ and play her.  So, like 3 months from now. 

    In my MMR of 1 baby champ I see in PVP…..(not including the established meta or boosted 5*s) 

    **Shang has been proven, he’s great and used by many (including myself)
    **Ultron has had some time and just a few people play him with Polaris in the Simulator 
    **Gamora is starting to come out as I’m seeing her more
    **Sersi is never seen since most people don’t have her covered well
    **Big Wheel is never seen too

Categories