***** Abigail Brand (Commander of S.W.O.R.D.) *****

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Comments

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes!  That's exactly what they should do! 

    The problem now is that Kingpin and Wasp etc are weak against every element and strong against nothing, while SW Colossus etc are strong against everything and weak against nothing. 

    There is plenty of space to make the game deep in that way and I would love for them to do it, but -- here's the thing, *they haven't*.  The good characters are just good and the bad characters are just bad.  There are no classes or Pokemon-style element matching because the good characters beat everything every time.


    What "element" is Abigail?  What sort of team is she exceptionally strong against?  What is her niche that can't be filled by any other character?  Why would I choose to bring her into battle over a character like SW who is good against every enemy team?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    The only thing she can do nobody else can is force a repeater to 0, but since she does it on an active power that drops a 2-turn CD and it only targets a random thing, that is a power that is way under tuned to be worth using. It is equivalent to Bag Man being the only character that can extend a friendly CD.
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    entrailbucket said:
    Yes!  That's exactly what they should do! 

    The problem now is that Kingpin and Wasp etc are weak against every element and strong against nothing, while SW Colossus etc are strong against everything and weak against nothing. 

    There is plenty of space to make the game deep in that way and I would love for them to do it, but -- here's the thing, *they haven't*.  The good characters are just good and the bad characters are just bad.  There are no classes or Pokemon-style element matching because the good characters beat everything every time.


    What "element" is Abigail?  What sort of team is she exceptionally strong against?  What is her niche that can't be filled by any other character?  Why would I choose to bring her into battle over a character like SW who is good against every enemy team?
    SW is weak against stuns, countdowns that stop damage reduction, and tile removal, not to mention characters that do massive damage in a single shot. As for Brand, she still needs to be tested with the current and future released characters. If Maggia Muscle were released as a playable character her stock rises immediately.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sekilicious said:
    dianetics said:
    Clearly this convo needs to slow down some since it appears to be straying away from Abigail.

    Lets move on from the discussion and meta implications and continue on with her kit and how it can be potentially be used effectively with other characters.

    i apologize for my hand in derailing this thread.
    I do think this has everything to do with Brand. It developed because of a comment that the developers didn’t know what made characters good or bad. Some people think every character outside the top-PvP meta isn’t worth rostering and, by extension, when they aren’t worth rostering they get flabbergasted they are released at all.  It is ok if some of us push back on that meme a little bit. There is enough of that on Line, Discord, and Reddit.
    You're responding to an argument that no one here is making.

    I will roster Abigail and I will champion her.  I will have fun using her in a combo, probably with Hawkeye or some 4*.  I will try to use her against the very best characters in PvP, and I'll try to win the CL10 challenge node with her, and I will probably fail at it.  That means that she is bad.

    A lot of players will roster 1 cover of her to do essentials, and they will continue to win everything despite that decision.  They won't miss anything, because there will never be a situation where you need her to win.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,741 Chairperson of the Boards
    entrailbucket said:

    Players should be able to compete and win using any character.  I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily.
    Yes and No.
    If the game is designed around an Iron Golem/Rust Monster/Mind Flayer (I prefer that over rock/paper/scissors) model and you bring scissors against a rock team you should lose virtually every time (minus big time luck). So any 2 random characters you pick should not necessarily beat any other 2 characters and definitely not easily.
    But yes, you should definitely be able to form a team with Wasp/Kingpin and beat some other pick 2 teams if the matchup is right. The problem is you just don't get to see those teams because no one is using them and even if a few players are, they make sure to leave out the Colossus/SW team on defense.
    KGB
    P.S. And yes, I'm fully aware the gulf between the best and worst characters is too wide (this is true in 3*, 4* as well as 5* land).
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    entrailbucket said:
    Sekilicious said:
    dianetics said:
    Clearly this convo needs to slow down some since it appears to be straying away from Abigail.

    Lets move on from the discussion and meta implications and continue on with her kit and how it can be potentially be used effectively with other characters.

    i apologize for my hand in derailing this thread.
    I do think this has everything to do with Brand. It developed because of a comment that the developers didn’t know what made characters good or bad. Some people think every character outside the top-PvP meta isn’t worth rostering and, by extension, when they aren’t worth rostering they get flabbergasted they are released at all.  It is ok if some of us push back on that meme a little bit. There is enough of that on Line, Discord, and Reddit.
    You're responding to an argument that no one here is making.

    I will roster Abigail and I will champion her.  I will have fun using her in a combo, probably with Hawkeye or some 4*.  I will try to use her against the very best characters in PvP, and I'll try to win the CL10 challenge node with her, and I will probably fail at it.  That means that she is bad.

    A lot of players will roster 1 cover of her to do essentials, and they will continue to win everything despite that decision.  They won't miss anything, because there will never be a situation where you need her to win.
    I wasn’t responding to an argument. I was pointing out the validity of the argument in the  Brand thread. 
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    Sekilicious said:

    If Maggia Muscle were released as a playable character her stock rises immediately.
    Speaking of Maggia Muscle I wonder how Brand will work with Sersi and Shang-Chi. I can think of a 30k AoE countdown that would be awesome if resolved in the middle of a winfinite. Maybe we are lucky only one can be resolved at a time…
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:
    entrailbucket said:

    Players should be able to compete and win using any character.  I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily.
    Yes and No.
    If the game is designed around an Iron Golem/Rust Monster/Mind Flayer (I prefer that over rock/paper/scissors) model and you bring scissors against a rock team you should lose virtually every time (minus big time luck). So any 2 random characters you pick should not necessarily beat any other 2 characters and definitely not easily.
    But yes, you should definitely be able to form a team with Wasp/Kingpin and beat some other pick 2 teams if the matchup is right. The problem is you just don't get to see those teams because no one is using them and even if a few players are, they make sure to leave out the Colossus/SW team on defense.
    KGB
    P.S. And yes, I'm fully aware the gulf between the best and worst characters is too wide (this is true in 3*, 4* as well as 5* land).
    I agree with this.  I was using those characters as examples, you've stated my argument more clearly and generally than I did.
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    entrailbucket said:
    KGB said:
    entrailbucket said:

    Players should be able to compete and win using any character.  I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily.
    Yes and No.
    If the game is designed around an Iron Golem/Rust Monster/Mind Flayer (I prefer that over rock/paper/scissors) model and you bring scissors against a rock team you should lose virtually every time (minus big time luck). So any 2 random characters you pick should not necessarily beat any other 2 characters and definitely not easily.
    But yes, you should definitely be able to form a team with Wasp/Kingpin and beat some other pick 2 teams if the matchup is right. The problem is you just don't get to see those teams because no one is using them and even if a few players are, they make sure to leave out the Colossus/SW team on defense.
    KGB
    P.S. And yes, I'm fully aware the gulf between the best and worst characters is too wide (this is true in 3*, 4* as well as 5* land).
    I agree with this.  I was using those characters as examples, you've stated my argument more clearly and generally than I did.
    This doesn’t correspond to my PvP experience. I see some, but I mostly see boosted characters and Shang-Chi with Valkyrie/Chavez especially above 800 pts after the first day. Occasionally, BRB and Polaris but that is mostly at 600pts, which is where they float when I leave those two on defense.  If I can get to 1000 points I hop off various Shang-Chi, Okoye teams worth 75 pts that are pretty obviously shield hopping themselves. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    I tested Abigail, Odin and Wanda and it's fine. The amount of banners popping up is crazy. :D

    I replaced Wanda with Lizard and it was much better. Lizard creates 4 repeater tiles, and self fortifies them every single turn. This in turn helps Odin to create his cds that heal his allies and turn their builds to 5/5/5 and then creates strike tiles, and it also triggers Abigail's team heal thrice. On top of that, he turns blue tiles into red tiles, and many times, he creates free matches. 

    Lizard/Odin > Wanda/Odin.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think you are forgetting something. It's that there will be rebalances.
    Abigail should'nt work well with HE as he only will appreciate her yellow cd. Although HE being rebalanced that will be an almost one-sided sinergy.
    However look at Green Goblin. If he would be rebalanced their sinergy would be absolute and GG should have the strenght to take down foes with a bit of help from abigail special tiles. 
    Also there are choices in this game that close your path to others, like favoriting some meta characters over others.
    There is also the extrinsic fact that when you started playing or when you jumped into 5* land, as people who did that recently naturally have less options that vet players ( in my case I can't enjoy Phoenix rebalance, of those possibles HE and GG).
  • Hellblazer666
    Hellblazer666 Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
    edited January 2022
    Abigal is nothing special I just like how easy she is to fight in PVP after that Phoenix PVP oh boy. This is the easiest 5 Star PVP I have ever played
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,180 Chairperson of the Boards
    Well, after reading through all this, I feel compelled to make some comments:
    1. This game is a product made for profit, so whatever sells will be noticed and repeated.
    2. The devs are trying to make a game that everyone likes; it's not just for the competitive player
    3. Only time will tell how good a character is (just like a movies)
    4. It's OK to speculate and predict how good or bad you think someone is
    5. Characters should not be judged alone; their usefulness is dependent on their partners (or future partners)
    6. The game is designed for people to pick and choose characters to chase after; I don't think you're supposed to love all of them.
    7. Disagreeing with others is fine, let's just keep it civil
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sekilicious said:
    entrailbucket said:
    KGB said:
    entrailbucket said:

    Players should be able to compete and win using any character.  I should be able to win fights against lvl550 SW/Colossus with lvl600+ Kingpin/Wasp, and win them easily.
    Yes and No.
    If the game is designed around an Iron Golem/Rust Monster/Mind Flayer (I prefer that over rock/paper/scissors) model and you bring scissors against a rock team you should lose virtually every time (minus big time luck). So any 2 random characters you pick should not necessarily beat any other 2 characters and definitely not easily.
    But yes, you should definitely be able to form a team with Wasp/Kingpin and beat some other pick 2 teams if the matchup is right. The problem is you just don't get to see those teams because no one is using them and even if a few players are, they make sure to leave out the Colossus/SW team on defense.
    KGB
    P.S. And yes, I'm fully aware the gulf between the best and worst characters is too wide (this is true in 3*, 4* as well as 5* land).
    I agree with this.  I was using those characters as examples, you've stated my argument more clearly and generally than I did.
    This doesn’t correspond to my PvP experience. I see some, but I mostly see boosted characters and Shang-Chi with Valkyrie/Chavez especially above 800 pts after the first day. Occasionally, BRB and Polaris but that is mostly at 600pts, which is where they float when I leave those two on defense.  If I can get to 1000 points I hop off various Shang-Chi, Okoye teams worth 75 pts that are pretty obviously shield hopping themselves. 
    So you can have a good amount of success using Shang-Chi to do everything.  Do you think you'd have the same amount of success if you used Abigail to do everything instead?  Could you win the CL10 challenge node if she was your only 5* champion?  Could you hit 1200 in PvP? 

    Do you see how that is a problem?
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    SC on his release got comments like "it's too complicated" or "he won't have relevance in top tiers". Personally I did Phoenix pvp with him until the very end.
    SC it's an army on one. It's not fair to compare the most independent character to all the others who need sinergy, although SC could need help on the first moves in order to build his killing combo.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    Why isn't it fair to compare them?  Does Shang-Chi have more stars?  Is he newer, so he's better due to power creep?
  • Breadsticks
    Breadsticks Posts: 85 Match Maker
    Gotta say Abigail pairs really well with Mantis. They just need a strong DPS/tank to go with them. I never liked assessing things in games as "good" or "bad". I prefer optimal or suboptimal. It's more applicable since things can be subjective and metas change. If a powerful character is released that takes advantage of Abigail then the picture changes. 

    I think there are two big issues for players. Firstly, we don't really know what the devs vision is for the game in the present and the future. This is important because it clouds us into what to expect, participate in the process and creates excitement for the game. 

    Secondly, there aren't enough steady and different game modes to take advantage of these unique characters. If we had this I many of the complaints would cease. 

    We would understand what kinds of characters were coming up and how they fit within a larger ecosystem of characters and modes. 
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    entrailbucket said:
    Why isn't it fair to compare them?  Does Shang-Chi have more stars?  Is he newer, so he's better due to power creep?
    SC is absolutely unique. And by playing him you are accepting his huge peaks and his huge downhills.
    He is almost a god when he is winfinite, but a mistake or not having luck with the board will turn him from a god into an amoeba.
    He has the lowest health on the newest 5*s too so using him means to hop, if you don't have the 5* buffed and really, really leveled. 
    Also AI will play him awfully on defense, only winning randomly.
    So playing SC on pvp has its limitations that other 5*s usually don't have.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,001 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ok, so Shang-Chi is much better than Abigail, but that's not a fair comparison (because he's bad on defense?  I'm not sure, but I'll agree to your premise for convenience).

    So who is it fair to compare Abigail to?  And how does she do in that comparison?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    Shang Chi isn’t all that unique; he plays nearly identically to 2* Bullseye and Karnak. Unique in the nonsensical match escalation for sure, but there are some trainer characters that will teach you to run the board like you need to at lower tiers.

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