PVP Supports: Feedback Thread
Comments
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@entrailbucket said:
I don't think this is a "1* at 672"-exclusive problem. Being able to start with a free cast of something like boosted ascended Killmonger's red, or Karnak's blue, or 4* Nightcrawler purple is just as problematic, if not more so.
No doubt. I don’t have 550s so I am not at the thick end of this but it also probably doesn’t help that the 1s are boosted so regularly either. To me this is starting to look like a Bishop issue again and I had no problem with Bishop myself. 😀
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@DAZ0273 said:
No doubt. I don’t have 550s so I am not at the thick end of this but it also probably doesn’t help that the 1s are boosted so regularly either. To me this is starting to look like a Bishop issue again and I had no problem with Bishop myself. 😀
I think the 1* are just the most obvious instance of the problem currently, because people have them and actually use them when they're boosted.
Next week's boost list has 2* Nightcrawler on it -- a free cast of his purple turn0 could also easily lead to non-games.
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@entrailbucket said:
I think the 1* are just the most obvious instance of the problem currently, because people have them and actually use them when they're boosted.
Next week's boost list has 2* Nightcrawler on it -- a free cast of his purple turn0 could also easily lead to non-games.
It is interesting how this is basically a combination of passive and AP meta, the worst scenario made flesh, lol!
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@entrailbucket said:
I think the 1* are just the most obvious instance of the problem currently, because people have them and actually use them when they're boosted.
Next week's boost list has 2* Nightcrawler on it -- a free cast of his purple turn0 could also easily lead to non-games.
It's the frequency of the 1* s being boosted that's the issue IMO. Two are boosted each week. When there are only eight of them, they get boosted once a month, essentially. I think there are about 101 natural 5* s now. Four get boosted each week. Divide 101 by 4 and you get 25.25, so on average, any given 5* is boosted once every 25 weeks, or twice a year on average. And some weeks, the four boosted aren't anything to write home about. Also, a lot of people who bought the offers the first time around have all these 1* s at 550, so each week they're getting a minimum two 672s to choose from. Not a lot of people have 5* s at 550, especially older 5* s. So even when decent 5* s finally get boosted, they still might be second choice to the 672 1* s available.
General consensus (and my observation) seems to be Spidey, Juggs, and Yelena are S-tier for the 1*->5 * characters. IM, Storm, and Venom a step below. Don't see Hawkeye and MBW much. So depending on how the boosts break down at least 2/4 weeks in the 1 * rotation sees those characters used a bunch, maybe even 3/4.
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@Borstock said:
I had a choice. And I got to 1200. But this isn't fun anymore. The supports have become the whole show. And knowing there's a 50% chance the match is over before you take your first turn because someone put boosts on a cheap spammable bomb that they bought is just garbage.Then I am confused about the complaint. You had a choice and chose to repeatedly take on a fight you didn't like?
I came across people running Ditko Quantum Batons, and fought a few because I wanted to see how it would go. I didn't haul out my own Ditko Quantum Batons ... maybe I will next time. I instead altered my own setup to kill Ditko with my 1st move. One of the fights that didn't come off, DItko fired his crits, but the AI did what the AI does (flub completely), and I used Ditko's crits to kill DItko.
One mechanic that i didn't catch on to right way was Kaine with the Eros support (whatever that bow is called) would reduce damage 118% (apparently), stacking those reductions, rather than applying them one at a time.
Since the 1*s are boosted on a 4wk rotation .. there's only 8 and 2 are boosted each week ... if supports in pvp is permanent, this will be a thing for a full week of every month.
The game changes (supposedly) based on what players do rather than what they say they will do, so ... if not happy, register that unhappiness with a lack of engagement. If not happy but still playing / spending, in the data it all looks the same.
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@DarthDeVo said:
It's the frequency of the 1* s being boosted that's the issue IMO. Two are boosted each week. When there are only eight of them, they get boosted once a month, essentially. I think there are about 101 natural 5* s now. Four get boosted each week. Divide 101 by 4 and you get 25.25, so on average, any given 5* is boosted once every 25 weeks, or twice a year on average. And some weeks, the four boosted aren't anything to write home about. Also, a lot of people who bought the offers the first time around have all these 1* s at 550, so each week they're getting a minimum two 672s to choose from. Not a lot of people have 5* s at 550, especially older 5* s. So even when decent 5* s finally get boosted, they still might be second choice to the 672 1* s available.
General consensus (and my observation) seems to be Spidey, Juggs, and Yelena are S-tier for the 1*->5 * characters. IM, Storm, and Venom a step below. Don't see Hawkeye and MBW much. So depending on how the boosts break down at least 2/4 weeks in the 1 * rotation sees those characters used a bunch, maybe even 3/4.
Right, more people have these guys at 550 and they're boosted more often, so they're just the most obvious instance of a much bigger problem. They are not the full extent of the problem, though -- removing them from the list just shifts the problem elsewhere.
Like, I've got Ares at 550. At 672 his green hits for (iirc) 18k/AP. I can pretty easily set up a team where turn0 I get a free single target hit at 180-250,000 damage, and guarantee the AI will hit you with the same thing on his turn 1. Can your strategy survive that?
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@Phumade said:
The main thing that has changed is that hp and shields are now cheap compared to their old scarcity. By this I just mean, the avg t50 player and certainly any t25 or better can afford near unlimited shield hops. No, people don't really play that way in general (3hops every 8hrs). But none of those players are under a strict shield budget and the flood of slots has really eliminated HP gold pressure.
Must be getting into sucky groups. I take top 50 without shield if I get around 600 or so
If I wasn't in a group that had a min of > @LHammer said:
I now have to memorize every support and their effects at each level in order to know if a team is going to surprise wipe me on the first turn. No, I don't think so. I'm pretty much done with PvP from here on.
Prior to this, if I didn't have a Pete's Paste Pots support, I didn't have to worry about what it did or who had synergy with it. Now, I'm supposed to know that if it's equipped on a Capricorn it generates three yellow trap tiles for each enemy stunned on the first turn which Chasm then converts to critical tiles with his Mox Emerald for +400% damage because of Red Skull's synergy with his Ultimate Nullifier?
Nope.
I have a hard enough time keeping track of three more goofball powers every time a new character is introduced. I don't need this.
You don't have to memorize anything. Just pick your team and play
Easy way to do this is like I said. Make it like a boss battle. 2 events running same time
Non supports will be normal season
Supports will not count for seadon but it will be a personal goal like the hero side on boss battles
Or even flip it monthly
One month supports
One month no supports
One month give me all the hp 😂0 -
I don't want to be that guy, but I told you so.
The dev's talked about this more than a year ago.
We knew this was coming and many of their supports acted a bit outside of the issues we thought.THEN we saw the reworked supports that made them stronger...LOL
Im not sure what is going on at BCS, BUT IM SURE IT IS A DISCUSSION ON HOW TO MONIZE MORE.
These dudes are looking to be the side chick in your wallet.
I am literally one leg trying to stay. I love the game. But Jesus Christ BCS stop trying to **** every player in your game.
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I wonder how many of these bad experiences could have been avoided with more strategy. I think people are trying to play the way they would normally play rather than changing it up to adapt? Not saying that's for sure the case here, but I do wonder.
Now that supports are available couldn't RiThor start with a turn 1 stun and run the match to the end, stopping Spiderman from attacking at all? I get it they aren't best team on defense, but if for some reason you really wanted to take that fight, couldn't you win it? I also get that means you're more likely to get hit, just thinkin aloud here.
I personally feel like the "god boost" as they call it is equally as troublesome (if not more) than the supports. Those boosts go to silly levels, also forcing you to have to play those characters for the health and match damage alone.
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@JoeHandle Yes. I like a challenge and don't play for placement. I play for progression. I didn't feel like fighting the 672 Phylla - 650+ Ultrons anymore and I ran out of ShangThor teams to pick on.
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@Phumade said:
The main thing that has changed is that hp and shields are now cheap compared to their old scarcity. By this I just mean, the avg t50 player and certainly any t25 or better can afford near unlimited shield hops. No, people don't really play that way in general (3hops every 8hrs). But none of those players are under a strict shield budget and the flood of slots has really eliminated HP gold pressure.
Must be getting into sucky groups. I take top 50 without shield if I get around 600 or so
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@WhiteBomber said:
I wonder how many of these bad experiences could have been avoided with more strategy. I think people are trying to play the way they would normally play rather than changing it up to adapt? Not saying that's for sure the case here, but I do wonder.Now that supports are available couldn't RiThor start with a turn 1 stun and run the match to the end, stopping Spiderman from attacking at all? I get it they aren't best team on defense, but if for some reason you really wanted to take that fight, couldn't you win it? I also get that means you're more likely to get hit, just thinkin aloud here.
I personally feel like the "god boost" as they call it is equally as troublesome (if not more) than the supports. Those boosts go to silly levels, also forcing you to have to play those characters for the health and match damage alone.
Respectfully, "just run an infinite stunlock team in every event," while A solution, is probably not the sort of solution we should be looking for, or that the devs should want us to settle on.
The "god boosts" exist to create some sort of incentive for diversity in the metagame. Right now, we get week-to-week diversity, to some extent. There might be a wall of him right now, but nobody will run Juggernaut next week. If the boosts didn't exist, nobody would run Juggernaut (or Phylla Vell, or Mr Sinister, or 98% of all characters) ever, if they wanted to win fights.
We had this before the boosts existed -- PvP was like 99% Okoye/Thor, then Okoye/Hulk, then SW/Colossus. We'd absolutely immediately go back to a metagame like that if the boosts went away. I lived through this. I refused to use whatever the "meta" team was at the time, and I lost, a lot, on offense and defense. The top characters in this game totally outclass everyone else.
That's why the boosts need to be +100 levels or more -- because otherwise everybody would only use "meta" characters and ignore the boost list. As it stands, tons of players already do this and can get along just fine. Boosted characters are viable now because, like, some loser at 672 is about as good as m'Thor etc at 550. If the boosted guys only got 50 levels, m'Thor etc would totally outclass them. You could either play using the "meta" characters exclusively, every week, in every event, or lose.
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@Tony_Foot said:
Are we really complaining about the only two useful 1s that have been boosted together for the only time I can remember, when MThor has been left running free for years decimating other strategies with out a god boost. Or some of the bonkers ascended 4 we are all now chasing down.The biggest issue with the game is people just cannot stand losing at all. They factor the play time to not lose. A few people spent money and got mildly useful 5* when god boosted. Ignoring that every other advantage the proper spenders get.
Remove the god boost, it's no longer needed for variety.
I don't think I'd mind losing if it didn't cost me 3 health packs to use the same team, but maybe I still would lol
-JaGo
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@Tony_Foot said:
Are we really complaining about the only two useful 1s that have been boosted together for the only time I can remember, when MThor has been left running free for years decimating other strategies with out a god boost. Or some of the bonkers ascended 4 we are all now chasing down.The biggest issue with the game is people just cannot stand losing at all. They factor the play time to not lose.
It didn't matter at all that they were boosted together.
That people can't stand losing is besides the point. It isn't a competition when the AI can beat you without doing anything. This isn't about losing a few more matches. It's about the match being over before it even begins.
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@Borstock said:
It didn't matter at all that they were boosted together.
That people can't stand losing is besides the point. It isn't a competition when the AI can beat you without doing anything. This isn't about losing a few more matches. It's about the match being over before it even begins.
The technical term for this is "non-game," and it's what this change has created a lot more of.
If you and your opponent both have optimized support stacks with high level characters, the game is won or lost based on whose supports trigger, before anyone even makes a move. This SUCKS. At least give us the illusion of agency -- make me feel like I'm accomplishing something when I win.
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I think the biggest mistake they have made is running this for a Season. If people feel this is affecting them negatively they are far less likely to give it a chance. I don't know how plausible it is to do but it would have been better to have run a mini Supports season (say a week long) and maybe then had a truncated Season after that so players could still play normally and they had time to analyse data from the Supports enabled stuff.
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I'm going to add my perspective only because me situation is a bit of an outlier. I quit the game around 5 years ago and until then, I had been as sweaty as a mostly F2P could be. I returned a few months ago, and well, it's been humbling. The best thing I got is the old Okoye-Thor team. I need every teensy gram of HP I can get my hands onto for roster slots so may I can catch up on collection within a year or so; that means, no shields. So I've gone pure progression and entirely dismissed placement. Around every 3 out of 4 weeks I have 0 boosted 5s (even though I used to have a near complete batch back in the day) so I basically have to skip every fight against boosted 5s, which leaves... yes, you guessed it, an ocean of M.Thor/Shang as far as the eye can see.
The most infuriating thing about that duo is not that they are good but rather how lucky they can get. You don't need supports or even boosts, when M.Thor oh so frequently gets **** 1-hour cascades from removing 3 tiles. So if they get "lucky" too many games, I exhaust my healthpacks and sometimes I really struggle with making the 16-wins minimum that for me it's the whole point of playing PVP. When I get a boosted 5* I often can get 25 without an issue. So anyway, that's my context.
So what have supports in PVP done for me? It hasn't really caused me to skip more teams, for one. The teams that got extra skippable with supports were already big no-nos for me due to their match damage and massive HP alone. Second, it has only marginally increased the bullshittery of M.Thor-Shang. But on the other hand, my Talon Fighter on Okoye has made my gameplan massively more effective. Moreover, it has encouraged people to try many different teams that are easier prey (or at least less randomly infuriating) than M.Thor teams for my Okoye-Thor. All in all, it's a positive for me.
Generally speaking, I agree with a statement someone made a few pages ago: Progression players will tend to favour this change and Placement players will tend to loathe it.
I think that one way of improve this is something that has been asked ever since I was a regular back in the day: rewards need to be improved to be more relevant for the people who get them. The top 10 rewards are pretty nice... if you are a fledgling endgame player. However, since there are so few of them, by pure necessity, no matter the existing gameplay systems (i.e. supports), those rewards will tend to go to full endgame players for whom those rewards are a mere drop in the ocean. So the ones who really need them will have to kill themselves to try to luck in there once or twice, do coordination and whatnot, but again, onyl a handful of them will manage. Then they will place within the top 100 and get the sort of rewards that are a drop in the ocean for them (but would be good for transitioning 4* players... who most likely can't get them). And so on.
If fledgling 5* players can get from realistic placements (and from extended progression past 25) the rewards that they actually need to progress (i.e. 5* covers), and those rewards are adjusted similarly all the way down, then much of the sweatiness, stress and anger (general or at any little change that seems to effect their meticulous plans) may melt away. Surely there will be players who still will want to go for the also improved top 10 rewards but that will be out of a desire to prove themselves rather than as the main way to progress one's collection at a good speed in this game.
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In PVP, I like to play the puzzle game of who counters who. I take Electro when someone has Juggernaut or Omega Red, I take Shaw when someone has Mighty Thor, I take Moon Knight against Chasm.
Supports has made that puzzle exponentially more complex, and it is information overload on how to counter the team I am playing. Now it is not just A vs B, but A vs B^(72*5). Each opponent now has a Support at up to 5 different levels, with 5 different functions (not just powers, but scale and % opportunity to fire), that interact differently depending on who they are paired with.
I see the positives when you can amp up your own team, but the negative isn't just a "powered up" opponent, but an opponent that no longer functions how I expect them to. 400+ characters & 70+ supports means I either have to invest a significant amount of "out of game" time to understand what I am doing before each fight, or go in blind and find out what happens as the game unfolds.
It is information overload and makes what I like about PVP (the who beats who style) difficult
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@slidecage said:
You don't have to memorize anything. Just pick your team and playYeah, you kind of do because picking your team and playing what previously would have been a manageable fight can now result in a massacre because you didn't understand what happens when Yelena has Uncle Ben's Rice equipped on a team with Star Brand.
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@LHammer said:
Yeah, you kind of do because picking your team and playing what previously would have been a manageable fight can now result in a massacre because you didn't understand what happens when Yelena has Uncle Ben's Rice equipped on a team with Star Brand.
Uncle Ben's rice gives you +2 spicy when applied to Mexicans but gets a 14% multiplier to any team equipped with it where at least one character is from Uranus.
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