***** Kang (The Conqueror) *****

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  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Making nodes much harder by also making the AI smarter has been my suggestion for the past couple years, and it includes reduction in the number of clears and grinds needed.

    Unfortunately, we've reached a state where players want to feel that they are beating "challenging" nodes, where in fact, the difficulty level is medium at best. These are the list of events I remember that received some hate and they were challenging:

    1) Original Fight for Wakanda
    2) Places of Powers (because the dev didn't reveal the details on how to maximise the best rewards. Instead, the players have to work together to figure out the way)
    3) Boss events with limited character selections (BCS)

    Players expect great rewards for beating "challenging" nodes. Let's be honest, even if the dev increases the difficulty for scl 10, players will ask the dev to increase the buff level by 200-300 levels, and we'll be back to the same old request of how the "buffed" SCL 10 are not challenging.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,315 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    Edit: Oh and it isn't beyond reason to suspect Kang may be the new Boss.

    As if it was a team of thanos galactus and abraxas. The final outcome will be another easy boss, annoying to the most.
    They didn't repeat heroic again, because of the complaints and/or data tracked.
    I've already played 2 gacha games (or freemium if it's easier to call them), running for many years and having plenty of options more for endgamers.

    If it is Kang I would expect maybe some sort of countdown dynamic that can send a character away and perhaps if all get sent away Kang wins type thing. I doubt it will be hard but assume Kang himself would at least be immune to the away status.

    No idea though, pure speculation.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:
    I mean the easiest way to make PVE harder is to finally run Simulator again.
    I don't know why that was shelved, it was the only PVE with challenging nodes.

    It's almost certainly due to their engagement metrics. Lower tier players just didn't play Simulator at all -- even in CL10 there were way fewer brackets that filled much more slowly. Always remember that we don't matter, the devs are concerned with the 95%, not us (the top 5%).

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,315 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Bowgentle said:
    I mean the easiest way to make PVE harder is to finally run Simulator again.
    I don't know why that was shelved, it was the only PVE with challenging nodes.

    It's almost certainly due to their engagement metrics. Lower tier players just didn't play Simulator at all -- even in CL10 there were way fewer brackets that filled much more slowly. Always remember that we don't matter, the devs are concerned with the 95%, not us (the top 5%).

    Well now the 95% have 3* Kang so no reason not to run it again.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    Yeah, we could be the 5% . But the game has been running for 9 years, it's pretty possible that a lot of players own a powerful roster.
    I'm playing for half the time, my top character doesn't reach lv 500 yet, and I feel there is no challenge for me.
    Design Nightmare levels, make them appear with sparks, thunders, flames or skulls, but do something for strong players!
    If everyone skip them, no problem.
    Perhaps in time when people decide to grown up stronger more people will engage it.

  • captainheath
    captainheath Posts: 270 Mover and Shaker

    I agree. The old gauntlet type of event that went away a long time ago was a motivator. Could I develop my roster to beat it? That was fun.

    It was also fun back when the four star DDP started and it was a challenge to actually win a legendary with an undercovered toon.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad said:
    Yeah, we could be the 5% . But the game has been running for 9 years, it's pretty possible that a lot of players own a powerful roster.
    I'm playing for half the time, my top character doesn't reach lv 500 yet, and I feel there is no challenge for me.
    Design Nightmare levels, make them appear with sparks, thunders, flames or skulls, but do something for strong players!
    If everyone skip them, no problem.
    Perhaps in time when people decide to grown up stronger more people will engage it.

    Yeah, so the problem is: how do you design a "nightmare" level right now?

    You can maybe make a fight where one of the cheesy infinite teams can't win, but at this point there are like 8 or 10 of them. If one won't work, we can all just switch to a different cheesy infinite team. These teams can beat enemies of infinite level 100% of the time.

    There's simply no way to make a fight difficult now.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,645 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Bad said:
    Yeah, we could be the 5% . But the game has been running for 9 years, it's pretty possible that a lot of players own a powerful roster.
    I'm playing for half the time, my top character doesn't reach lv 500 yet, and I feel there is no challenge for me.
    Design Nightmare levels, make them appear with sparks, thunders, flames or skulls, but do something for strong players!
    If everyone skip them, no problem.
    Perhaps in time when people decide to grown up stronger more people will engage it.

    Yeah, so the problem is: how do you design a "nightmare" level right now?

    You can maybe make a fight where one of the cheesy infinite teams can't win, but at this point there are like 8 or 10 of them. If one won't work, we can all just switch to a different cheesy infinite team. These teams can beat enemies of infinite level 100% of the time.

    There's simply no way to make a fight difficult now.

    Using the current win conditions now in PvE that's true. But if they were designing a CL11 (Nightmare level etc) and they changed the rules of how PvE worked for that new CL that wouldn't be true.

    For example they could remove the use of supports and boosts (so team up powers only), allow no stuns (like they do in the 4* character intro battle) and set it so you have to win the battle in X number of turns. Stuff like that would add a new level of challenge. They could also modify how damage (match/power) works so that damaged characters do less damage (say at 75% health you do 75% power/match damage, at 50% you do 50% power/match damage and at 25% you do 25% power/damage) to throw in another new wrinkle. Tons of stuff could be done increase the challenge or get players to think outside the box/create new teams etc.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    You're right. I was remembering the Gauntlet, which had really difficult fights that operated without breaking the rules of the game. That's why Gauntlet can never come back.

    With the level of power that players have access to now, you'd absolutely have to change the rules to make a fight difficult.

    I really don't know how that would go over though. You'd have to make it explicitly optional (and, potentially, non-optimal) or the level of salt they'd get from the usual suspects ("this is terrible for the future of the game!!!") would be overwhelming.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,619 Chairperson of the Boards

    I guess you could run Gauntlet with the limit that once you had won with someone in the roster, you couldn't use them again. So it's really a longer term strategy/depth of roster-type event than a 5*Kang aways everyone (in a flaky attempt to be even slightly on topic).

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,591 Chairperson of the Boards

    What made Gauntlet hard was the no mirror characters. The main point to remember was that we had much more limited attack "Vectors" (I simply mean playstyles like, Special Tiles, Nukes, Stun lockers, away etc). So the game could exclude a "playstyle" with good team construction. In the current environment, we have so many different avenues to attack and finish a match that the "no mirror chars" isn't really relevant for end tier accounts.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    It's even simpler, I said it before.
    Just add a win condition on a pve node, kind of like puzzle gauntlet.
    Win condition of this CN: one enemy must be downed with an AoE power.
    Now try it, many winfinite teams are out.

  • allen_koholic
    allen_koholic Posts: 105 Tile Toppler

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bladewing said:
    What do you guys mean by constantly processing?

    I don't have 5*Kang yet, so I can't check.

    Do you mean, like banners popping up every turn? Does it slow the game down?

    Yeah, it's not a significant amount of delay, but it's a delay. The banner pops up every turn, sometimes multiple times a turn, depending on what you do. I'm not sure if there's an animation because I have those turned off.

    No animation beyond the banner, just advises you that Realm Shift is doing...something? No idea what.

    Has this been addressed? It's popping even when he's stunned.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 769 Critical Contributor

    @Bad said:
    Now try it, many winfinite teams are out.

    The Wasp is ON! Her winnfinite is AOE. ^_^

  • allen_koholic
    allen_koholic Posts: 105 Tile Toppler

    Does Chasm's super stun at the start of the match prevent supports from firing their "at the beginning of the match" abilities? I haven't seen him in PVE to know. That would stop any worry about Kang autowins and make a difficult time.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,627 Chairperson of the Boards

    Chasm has not shown up in PvE, but I doubt it. Since supports aren't characters abilities.
    It also wouldn't do much about the autowin. Instead of 3 turns it would be like 5-6 turns with boosts.

  • allen_koholic
    allen_koholic Posts: 105 Tile Toppler

    @dianetics said:
    Chasm has not shown up in PvE, but I doubt it. Since supports aren't characters abilities.
    It also wouldn't do much about the autowin. Instead of 3 turns it would be like 5-6 turns with boosts.

    Chasm's AP drain might slow that down even further. Blue isn't a top power though, so it won't drain as quickly.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,841 Chairperson of the Boards

    I would not want to be on this forum the day Chasm shows up in PvE.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    I would not want to be on this forum the day Chasm shows up in PvE.

    Enemy of the state.
    Calling it.

  • allen_koholic
    allen_koholic Posts: 105 Tile Toppler

    @entrailbucket said:
    I would not want to be on this forum the day Chasm shows up in PvE.

    Nope. But as a super-hard challenge node, he's ... I mean it'll still suck donkey ****. But we won't be able to easily cheese our way out it.

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